useless weapon

doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:55 pm

Hi,

I just want to know how you negotiate with some weapons that appear to be useless? Ill explain. When you look, for example the Glaive, its make 1d8, the same strength than a short sword, except that youve to use it with to hand. I know that in D&D they have the bonus to be able to strike up to two square, but in C&C they do not have this attribute and, by the book, it has no rule to use map system. So, how are you doing to calibrate this weapon?

DO you calibrate it ?!?

Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:00 pm

doomed_bishop wrote:
Hi,

I just want to know how you negotiate with some weapons that appear to be useless? Ill explain. When you look, for example the Glaive, its make 1d8, the same strength than a short sword, except that youve to use it with to hand. I know that in D&D they have the bonus to be able to strike up to two square, but in C&C they do not have this attribute and, by the book, it has no rule to use map system. So, how are you doing to calibrate this weapon?

DO you calibrate it ?!?

Sounds like more fodder for a houserule to me. What does CGA&A say about it? Mike may have put in an optional rule to go along with polearm combat.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:18 pm

The glaive is a polearm, and hence, you always get first strike against someone approaching you in melee with it. I'd say hitting someone before they hit you is pretty good, and not exactly "useless." No house rule needed.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:23 pm

No pole arm is useless. Its just intended to be used to keep opponents at a distance. The glaive is, essentially, a long spear. Its quite effective against cavalry charges, or any other large moving target bearing down on the character, if the butt end is set into the ground.
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:28 pm

serleran wrote:
The glaive is a polearm, and hence, you always get first strike against someone approaching you in melee with it. I'd say hitting someone before they hit you is pretty good, and not exactly "useless." No house rule needed.

Where is it writing ... In initiative ?!? or in another book

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:33 pm

Yes, in the section on initiative. Third paragraph, where it says "there is one exception...."
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:47 pm

doomed_bishop wrote:
Where is it writing ... In initiative ?!? or in another book

Page 115 (3rd printing), Column 2, 4th paragraph, more specifically.
4th printing, its on page 128, 2nd column, and the bottom of the page.
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:15 pm

Ok!

Its just a misinterpretation I guess, because the way a understand this rule, the weapon has to have reach over 10 feet, and the way I tough, this type of weapon has only ten feet of reach!

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:44 pm

doomed_bishop wrote:
Ok!

Its just a misinterpretation I guess, because the way a understand this rule, the weapon has to have reach over 10 feet, and the way I tough, this type of weapon has only ten feet of reach!

Well, it depends. A pole arm can be anywhere from 10'-20' feet long.
Not something that I'd want to try and maneuver through a dungeon with in a hurry, myself.
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:02 pm

Its just bugging me because the fact that these weapon have a reach of more than 10 feet allow them to touch creature that are at 3 case if we say that 1 square = 5 foot.

Well, is they any pertinent information in the book Castles & Crusades: Castellan's Guide to Arms & Armor to make clear the use of these weapon ???

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:28 pm

Even if a polearm is only 7 1/2' long it is considered "reach" and has the 'first strike' advantage. The book doesnt specify length but if you really want to , make all polearms 10'+ so that they qualify. I use 7-8' polearms just for fun but they also get firsties.

Another advantage of using a polearm: you can attack a bad guy from behind your buddy. (assuming you can see him which in the case of ogres and such is no problemo).

You can use it to hit guys when they are too far away to attack back.

You can double team a monster from flanking positions and unless your buddy has one too, he is likely going to take the counterattack (monster attacking closest target and all)

You can 'poke for traps'.

Tentpole.

Attacking mounted dudes. See, since they are on a horse (and technically 'large') they would normally get a 'first strike' vs medium melee characters. But not so versus polearms.

You can make a litter out of one and a blanket to carry your buddy.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:32 pm

By the way, we always seem to have a polearm when we go dungeon crawling. It is a favored weapon here for just those reasons.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:47 pm

The first C&C game I ran had a player using a polearm... I believe it may have EVEN be this particular pole arm. That game also witnessed the first example of 'thinking outside the box' and, with a siege check, the person used the pole arm to flip some giant beetles!!

Beetles hate being stuck on their backs.

M
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:16 am

I had a half-ogre fighter that used a bardiche as his main weapon...we called him sir quissinart.
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:23 pm

I just want to continue my deliberation about this topic, but in using other weapons as examples. For instance, if you look sword scimitar, rapier, short, or staff, they all doing 1d6 damage, but the club, whose free, does 1d6+1, have a range attack and have lesser EV than other mentioned above. So, again, how are you doing to equilibrate this? I know that, by the book, they arent critical hit, but I thing maybe use and give these weapons greater change and/or damage when gain an critical hit. This is one solution, but is any other key somebody use? Or, maybe, is a rule(s) I didnt see ??

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:09 pm

No weapon is useless, first. Now, regarding the damage values etc... sure, some weapons are simply superior by virtue of their statistics, but the odds of finding a magical club, for example, are very low compared to that of a short sword, for example. There is also the "player factor" in that not every single player is going to look at the list and say "yeah, my knight really wants to use a club... after all, it does +1 damage over a sword."

So, basically, it comes down to this -- there is more to weapon choice than what the book says about their numbers. What if, for example, you were in a high medieval setting where using a club automatically made you a barbarian in the eyes of any civilized person?
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:41 pm

If it hasn't been done so already, this would be a good time to mention TLG's Castellen's Guide to Arms & Armor.
http://www.trolllord.com/cnc/8502.html

There are lots of differing statistics for weapons in that book above and beyond what is presented in the PHB.

~O
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:59 pm

Quote:
Castellen's Guide to Arms & Armor

I tried to buy it but they we're all sell, i'm just waiting now !

However, i continu thinking that some weapon are useless
Well, not totally, but it's true that I would have prefere if any weapon could have advantage other than in Role Playing. On the other hand, I can enjoy it sometime, but, still, i like when that seems being rare !

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:12 am

doomed_bishop wrote:
I tried to buy it but they we're all sell, i'm just waiting now !

However, i continu thinking that some weapon are useless
Well, not totally, but it's true that I would have prefere if any weapon could have advantage other than in Role Playing. On the other hand, I can enjoy it sometime, but, still, i like when that seems being rare !

Some weapons are just better then others. But it is very subjective in what is regarded as better.
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:36 am

CharlieRock wrote:
Some weapons are just better then others. But it is very subjective in what is regarded as better.

Exactly, most of these questions come from min/maxing and not role playing or style. Yeah "X" might be better than "Y" in some ways but you should pick weapons that go with your concept of what your character is. In turn the GM should encourage this by not penalizing players that are not min/maxing and make the play fun and appropriate.

I swear the CK has a lot of say in this area, just through his play style. If the CK plays in such a way that just through pure survival it becomes essential that players are forced into getting the BIG stuff. It is just as bad as railroading only much more subtle. I've always much more enjoyed games sessions that lets the player play his character that he envisioned rather than one that was forced on him.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:37 am

There's no such thing as superior weaponry. Just superior wielders.
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:25 am

I just find it strange that the Club is doing more damage to a creature than a sword !

Of course it can doing a "real" role playing game by choising a weapon that is bound to our character, but i don't know, i just thing that they just inverse the weapon, and personnaly i would have prefere a short sword of 1d6+1 and a club of 1d6, but free. That's only my opinion and it worth what it worth

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:06 am

Why o why does the club still do 1d6+1 damage!!! GAH!!!

~O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:26 am

Because the club is awesome.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:44 am

Man, TLG and their obsession with the club. +1 damage, pluuhheease. You know how many players in my games pick up this badass weapon upon character creation... and then ask to make the weapon expert? Well, only one but he was real persistant!
~O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:04 am

You can't make an expert club... you have to find that perfect piece of petrified wood just laying out in the wilderness awaiting discovery, begging to be found and pilfered and strapped to the pelvis of some burly non-girlie-man who just happens to also wear a mastodon loincloth checkered with the splayed molars of smilodon awesomanicus. And, if the character's name is Dirty.... well, then you get a +4 bonus on the check to locate such a specimen of unadulterated amazement. Sheesh! Play the rules or be played, Omote.
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doomed_bishop · Post by **doomed_bishop** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:11 am

Quote:
Why o why does the club still do 1d6+1 damage!!! GAH!!!

In this point I agree with you. But in my case, it is not only apply for the club, but a large part of the weapon in C&C. For instance, the bastard sword. It's not that it deals 1d10 in finding to much, but the fact that, by the book, no one hand weapon deals this number of damage or have a adavante sufficient high. I know that, in D&D 3.5, for example (do not throwing axe please), the player has to take a feat to be able to take it with one hand. When we considere the fact that it doesn't have these types of thing in C&C, i think that these weapon should does lesser hit point loss !

Still, this is just my opinion, i do not try to make a revolution of the game

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:03 pm

Omote wrote:
Why o why does the club still do 1d6+1 damage!!! GAH!!!

~O

Because of all the $1s that trolls spend at the local "club".

Sorry bad joke, but i've only had 4 hours of sleep in the last 24 hours so I'm a bit off...
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commanderFuron · Post by **commanderFuron** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:33 pm

Quote:
ou can't make an expert club... you have to find that perfect piece of petrified wood just laying out in the wilderness awaiting discovery, begging to be found and pilfered and strapped to the pelvis of some burly non-girlie-man who just happens to also wear a mastodon loincloth checkered with the splayed molars of smilodon awesomanicus. And, if the character's name is Dirty.... well, then you get a +4 bonus on the check to locate such a specimen of unadulterated amazement. Sheesh! Play the rules or be played, Omote.

I believe the club was in fact the jaw bone of a northern whale filled with lead to add heft and striking power hand made after the killing of said whale. Modeled after actual tribal clubs, it had three knobby protrusions from the grinding teeth and the back of the jaw bone was made into a handle.

And it was in fact picked because it went with the character concept not so much that it was mechanically superior all though it was mechanically good as well. I had the idea he would have a club like the guy in gangs of new york and be a thug type rogue, not so much a sneaky rogue.

I personally think the club is +1 damage because it is automatically considered superior. If you use a club as a weapon and it's free, you will take the time to find a good piece of wood and make it just right for your use. Therefore, you can't make it better but it doesn't say that anywhere, I wish the weapon section had pictures and descriptions, because A) it's cool and B) I want to know what physical difference between a glaive and a sword are. I know as kids we spent hours reading about what each weapon looked like and how cool our character would look using them.

Frost · Post by **Frost** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:01 pm

doomed_bishop wrote:
In this point I agree with you. But in my case, it is not only apply for the club, but a large part of the weapon in C&C. For instance, the bastard sword. It's not that it deals 1d10 in finding to much, but the fact that, by the book, no one hand weapon deals this number of damage or have a adavante sufficient high. I know that, in D&D 3.5, for example (do not throwing axe please), the player has to take a feat to be able to take it with one hand. When we considere the fact that it doesn't have these types of thing in C&C, i think that these weapon should does lesser hit point loss !

Still, this is just my opinion, i do not try to make a revolution of the game

I have issues with the bastard sword in C&C as well. I think the 3.5 method is sort of overkill and it was written up basically to provide a human-based exotic weapon. In C&C, I'm going to use the 1e rule that has the bastard sword doing 1d8 when wielded one-handed and 2d4 when wielded two handed (I might tweak that to 1d10 when wielded two-handed though).

I'm scratching my head at the club doing 1d6+1. I can see letting an actual club (i.e., a crafted piece of wood) do 1d6, but for a table leg or something, I might restrict that to 1d4 or 1d4+1.
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