An Open Letter About Of Gods & Monsters

[AnthonyRoberson]

Gentlemen,

First of all, let me say that I have the greatest admiration for both Castles & Crusades and the esteemed Mr. Jim Ward. But after browsing Of Gods & Monsters for a just a few hours, I would beg of you to consider revising it before general release.

There are honestly quite a few issues with it. The whole book could use a good edit for readability and typos. Many of the spells and granted powers are also ridiculously overpowered when compared to the base assumptions from the Player's Handbook.

I honestly feel that releasing the book in its current form would harm the image of both Troll Lord Games and Castles & Crusades. Please take this open letter into consideration.

Thank you for your time.

Anthony Roberson

[AnthonyRoberson]

Omote wrote:
...Example: "+1 on defensive rolls." There is no direct C&C rules correlation with this quote. When asked about such things in the Of Gods & Monsters thread, Mr. Ward explained what that meant...

Yes. And if there were not NUMEROUS examples of this I would not be as concerned. I don't have the book in front of me, but I can recall things like an 0-level spell that summons a 10th? level fighter that is immune to weapon damage for 1/turn per caster level! One Roman (I think) god grants all his worshippers +1 to all attributes!

Add to that a multitude of typos like its instead of it's and a good bit of awkward and/or confusing sentences and I am just concerned about the general reception of this book and its reflection on the game.

[gideon_thorne]

AnthonyRoberson wrote:
Yes. And if there were not NUMEROUS examples of this I would not be as concerned. I don't have the book in front of me, but I can recall things like an 0-level spell that summons a 10th? level fighter that is immune to weapon damage for 1/turn per caster level! One Roman (I think) god grants all his worshippers +1 to all attributes!

Actually, the roman god in question grants powers thus:

Worshipers have +2 in charisma, and cleric worshipers have a +1 in all of their attribute scores.

Not sure where you're getting the overpowered bit from? If anything, most of it is underpowered in my estimation.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[AnthonyRoberson]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Actually, the roman god in question grants powers thus:

Worshipers have +2 in charisma, and cleric worshipers have a +1 in all of their attribute scores.

Not sure where you're getting the overpowered bit from? If anything, most of it is underpowered in my estimation.

By the I assume you are kidding about this not being overpowered...Let's see. Do I worship the god that grants me +1 to some random ability or the one that grants me +2 to CHA and +1 to all other attributes!!* Hmm...I wonder.

* Do these bonuses stack? The book doesn't say...

[gideon_thorne]

AnthonyRoberson wrote:
By the I assume you are kidding about this not being overpowered...Let's see. Do I worship the god that grants me +1 to some random ability or the one that grants me +2 to CHA and +1 to all other attributes!!* Hmm...I wonder.

* Do these bonuses stack? The book doesn't say...

No, actually, Im not. But I'm basing this on assumptions from my game that would seriously make the old school sword and sorcery purist blanch.

I've been looking through the book itself, and I'm not really seeing it even for C&C, which can be as underpowered or as over powered as the imagination grants.
I'll put it another way, though. Eberron is underpowered for my game.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[GameOgre]

+1 to all abilities even for a cleric is HUGE!

In my own game I think I will limit some of the granted abilities but thats what C&C is all about anyway. Do with it what you want to!

That said however it does seem to shift away from C&C focus on lower end power scales. I'm not so sure that is a bad thing. I for one would LOVE to see a high level handbook for C&C and much more stuff for Epic level play!

I don't think the abilities others have talked about are bad or unbalanced IF you take into account the whole range of play styles....something that C&C has not done to this date"at least with official releases".

For the average C&C games with levels 1-12 some of those bonus's are a little too high powered for my taste...too each his own though.

As far as

Quote:
good edit for readability and typos.

I have never found them as perfect as some companies (with a much larger budget for this kind of thing) but I have never been unhappy with them either on that regard.

I however, do not have the book in question at the momment.
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Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

Subscriber to Crusader Magazine!
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[Sir Osis of Liver]

I picked this up at GenCon, and what I've read of it so far, I really like it. In ancient civilizations, even through the early Christian period, religion was huge, not just for the adventurers in the world, but for the average person as well. For a fantasy game, I think this is important as well. I like the ramifications of introducing codified religion into a game, and having the gods themselves smile on their mortal faithful in various ways. It introduces lots of RP hooks into the game that weren't previously there. If the character slips up and doesn't do the required sacrifice on the holy days, the pluses all go bye-bye. That's pretty neat, IMO.

[csperkins1970]

gideon_thorne wrote:
No, actually, Im not. But I'm basing this on assumptions from my game that would seriously make the old school sword and sorcery purist blanch.

I've been looking through the book itself, and I'm not really seeing it even for C&C, which can be as underpowered or as over powered as the imagination grants.
I'll put it another way, though. Eberron is underpowered for my game.

It's fine that you feel that way but there are a lot of players of C&C that would disagree with you.

I expect the rules to give a semblance of balance/fairness or I won't buy them. If that's not the case, I'd rather expend the time and effort necessary to come up with material that works better for my C&C game.
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[Fiffergrund]

It's not a core book. Sounds like it might need a disclaimer, though, just based on what I've seen. Otherwise, people are going to use it as a dial-a-munchkin telephone book.

Depending on what system is used to generate attributes, granting +1 to all of them is a bit much. This would be especially true for point-buy systems, where the player need not spend the extra points to put the attribute into the next bonus level. Instead, the player would only have to spend enough to get within 1 point, and the bonus puts him over the top. That frees up points for other attributes, which are further boosted by the +1 as well!

The +3 to AC mentioned in another thread is way too much for standard C&C, in my opinion. That's a 15% bonus, the equivalent of granting a piece of +3 armor at character creation.

Jim has always been forthright about how the Monty Haul nickname came about, so I'm not terribly surprised. I do think that a nice blurb would be nice that could explain that some of the power levels may not fit the average C&C game and that things should be carefully adopted. Above all, it needs to be clear that this is NOT a core book and just because it's a C&C book doesn't mean player X has a case for grabbing all of the munchkin abilities he can carry.

edit: Does anyone know if the bonuses, penalties, powers, or spells were playtested? This may be a circumstance where Jim was more or less arbitrary and no one ever took another look once it was submitted.
_________________
Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[GameOgre]

Can we split into the Pre-GAM and Post-GAM factions yet? or it still too early? I can't wait till CKG comes out and we split into Pre-CKG and Post-CKG factions as well!!

I just want a shot as Steve at the next Gen Con to pay him back for the Elbowing Heard around the Con '09!

Sadly I just made the Great Elbowing Heard around the Con up(I didnt get to go) but im looking to form a grudge against Steve for something even if I have to make it up!
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Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

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[serleran]

All it needs, really, if anything, is "These are powers bestowed by the Gods. They are not guaranteed. Each comes with strictures and limitations which can be imposed by the Castle Keeper as needed. Gods, being fickle, do not always even let their worshipers know what has offended them until it is too late.. so, if a power relied upon suddenly fails, you might have an atonement in order. This is expected, and even needed, for it furthers both the enjoyment of the abilities and gives a more diverse playing field for adventure."

That would "solve" whatever problem there may be.
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Serl's Corner

[gideon_thorne]

csperkins1970 wrote:
It's fine that you feel that way but there are a lot of players of C&C that would disagree with you.

I expect the rules to give a semblance of balance/fairness or I won't buy them. If that's not the case, I'd rather expend the time and effort necessary to come up with material that works better for my C&C game.

This is all subjective though. Because no one, and I mean no one, can point to a game where all agree to the same sense of balance and fairness.
I stand by my statement though. And folks are, of course, free to disagree.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[gideon_thorne]

GameOgre wrote:
Can we split into the Pre-GAM and Post-GAM factions yet? or it still too early? I can't wait till CKG comes out and we split into Pre-CKG and Post-CKG factions as well

*chuckles* There's already been a bit of that with folks who swear by the white box of C&C. Some who think that the C&C hardbacks went too far. Some not far enough.

Doesn't matter what TLG produces. There will always be people bringing their own perspective to the table as to what equates to balance and power level. But that's ok. I'd be genuinely surprised if any 3 or more people ever played an rpg the same way.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

I agree some, SOME, of these powers are too powerful, but as is already mentioned I will exercise my right to house rule to bring those in line with what I consider the "right" power level.

As for typo's they certainly need to be addressed, so lets compile a list before the hard back gets done. The Trolls are printing in house, as it stands right now, so the changes can be made.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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[Troll Lord]

Well I certainly don't want to get into the stylistic difference that people have at their own tables as each table is different. But I think that if you are going to use the granted abilities, and some of these are little top heavy for my game, you had better CK it up () and make the characters use the taboos and ceremonies that are listed right above the granted abilities.

The god in question requires a sacrifice of gold and diamonds at noon on the solstice. Miss that and you get nothing for until the next solstice. Also the god in question holds the crow sacred and one can never kill a crow. Many of the gods have these taboos and ceremonies. Diana for instance requires a sacrifice every full moon, one of opals. Also more sacrifices in the forest if battle is done in the woods.

That said, I don't see it clearly stated in the front of the book where these abilities come with proper observances. I will make that amendment before this goes to full press...this week or next. I'm actually adding chapter headings and one of the artists who was dropped from the book.

As for the religious content, its really up to the CK. Add or drop what they will, as with all things methinks.

Thanks for the heads up Anthony I'll get that paragraph added to clarify that these abilities can only come with the proper observances.

Steve
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
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[Fiffergrund]

The standard that should be used is that if a C&C product introduces powers, items, monsters, spells, or equipment that offer an undue advantage to those using them as opposed to those that are using just the core rules, that product needs some serious scrutiny.

This has nothing to do with what is appropriate for a personal game. It has to do with whether or not new things mesh well with the core rules. The core rules are the standard.

If a splatbook is published with all manner of overpowered spells and items, and they are not balanced against the core game to avoid unfair advantage, then the basic assumptions of the core game are different for those who have the product and those that do not.

Hence the problem with d20 splatbooks.

If OG&M has these characteristics, then some attention is needed.
_________________
Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[James M. Ward]

Mr. Roberson is certainly entitled to his opinion. My focus on creating this book was to increase the fun of role-playing. The powers of some of the gods are powerful, some of you have noted that if you don't toe the line and pay attention to your deity in a role-playing way, you will lose those powers. I find that check and balance perfect in limiting that power.

Castle Keepers don't have to use the pantheons they don't like. However, I imagined the fun players would have in reading the pantheons and picking one that helps them the most.

The notes Mr. Roberson detailed are a very small part of the whole project. I hate spelling errors and Steve did pay for an editor. Please, Mr. Roberson if these misspellings irritate you so much, note them and send them into the forum so that we can correct our errors.

Saying a spell is too powerful or not powerful enough is extremely subjective. Steve chided me for some of the spells being too silly and lacking in use. I myself think a beer finding spell is fundamental to the C&C world. I made the spells 'interesting' and only the worshipers can use them which is enough of a limit, in my mind. Also think that the enemies of mankind have their special spells and powers and using them will increase the role-playing fun and danger. I think that alone makes this product worth having.

James M. Ward

[csperkins1970]

serleran wrote:
All it needs, really, if anything, is "These are powers bestowed by the Gods. They are not guaranteed. Each comes with strictures and limitations which can be imposed by the Castle Keeper as needed. Gods, being fickle, do not always even let their worshipers know what has offended them until it is too late.. so, if a power relied upon suddenly fails, you might have an atonement in order. This is expected, and even needed, for it furthers both the enjoyment of the abilities and gives a more diverse playing field for adventure."

That would "solve" whatever problem there may be.

True enough... though that amounts to fixing a poorly designed rules through DM fiat. As a DM I don't want to have to repeatedly "fix" rules that serve to undermine the game... which is why I buy professionally written and edited books. It's a matter of quality control. If my players and I think that a book or line of books lacks internal consistency and quality control, we won't purchase that book or line of books.
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[ssfsx17]

GameOgre wrote:
Can we split into the Pre-GAM and Post-GAM factions yet? or it still too early? I can't wait till CKG comes out and we split into Pre-CKG and Post-CKG factions as well!!

The 1st-3rd-print Barbarian was more hardcore and mature! I started playing C&C with that Barbarian and have very fond memories of him. The PHB 4th-print Barbarian loses all of the flavor, grittiness, old-school-attitude, maturity and toughness of the old one! The old Barbarian would like go all berserk and stuff and eat people's guts after killing them.

Oh yeah, and the M&T 4th print actually has Riding Walrus and Shark stats? WTF? I liked it better when I had to use my imagination to write up the stats for those creatures! It was, like, you know, the way that Steve wanted it, before Peter Bradley and Robert Doyel forced him out of his own company!

I think this new generation of C&C books is evil! Pure evil I say! Eeeeeeeevil! The game is ruined forever!

[gideon_thorne]

ssfsx17 wrote:
The 1st-3rd-print Barbarian was more hardcore and mature! I started playing C&C with that Barbarian and have very fond memories of him. The PHB 4th-print Barbarian loses all of the flavor, grittiness, old-school-attitude, maturity and toughness of the old one! The old Barbarian would like go all berserk and stuff and eat people's guts after killing them.

Oh yeah, and the M&T 4th print actually has Riding Walrus and Shark stats? WTF? I liked it better when I had to use my imagination to write up the stats for those creatures! It was, like, you know, the way that Steve wanted it, before Peter Bradley and Robert Doyel forced him out of his own company!

I think this new generation of C&C books is evil! Pure evil I say! Eeeeeeeevil! The game is ruined forever!

Now that's hilarious.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[seskis281]

ssfsx17 wrote:
The 1st-3rd-print Barbarian was more hardcore and mature! I started playing C&C with that Barbarian and have very fond memories of him. The PHB 4th-print Barbarian loses all of the flavor, grittiness, old-school-attitude, maturity and toughness of the old one! The old Barbarian would like go all berserk and stuff and eat people's guts after killing them.

Oh yeah, and the M&T 4th print actually has Riding Walrus and Shark stats? WTF? I liked it better when I had to use my imagination to write up the stats for those creatures! It was, like, you know, the way that Steve wanted it, before Peter Bradley and Robert Doyel forced him out of his own company!

I think this new generation of C&C books is evil! Pure evil I say! Eeeeeeeevil! The game is ruined forever!

LMFAO

_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

[James M. Ward]

Fiffergrund, makes an excellent point below.

Jim has always been forthright about how the Monty Haul nickname came about, so I'm not terribly surprised. I do think that a nice blurb would be nice that could explain that some of the power levels may not fit the average C&C game and that things should be carefully adopted.

Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal, Knight-Errant of the Castle and Crusade Society.

I looked through my and Steve's Preface and we should have said there was some powerful "epic" things in the book. I have never been told by Steve, as I have designed things, that I needed to keep them low powered to fit the normal C&C standard. Also some of these deities are low powered when it comes to a 10th level player character with some powerful magical equipment. I'm sorry I missed out on that, however. I don't want people fooled into thinking this was a low level, normal C&C product.

With that said, I did give examples of where true historical religions gave people tremendous power. I personally do not believe +1 in all attributes is a stretch in some faiths that preach that if you believe you gain the strength of ten. There are hundreds of such examples in the historical faith's of man.

James M. Ward

[Treebore]

Fiffergrund wrote:
The standard that should be used is that if a C&C product introduces powers, items, monsters, spells, or equipment that offer an undue advantage to those using them as opposed to those that are using just the core rules, that product needs some serious scrutiny.

This has nothing to do with what is appropriate for a personal game. It has to do with whether or not new things mesh well with the core rules. The core rules are the standard.

If a splatbook is published with all manner of overpowered spells and items, and they are not balanced against the core game to avoid unfair advantage, then the basic assumptions of the core game are different for those who have the product and those that do not.

Hence the problem with d20 splatbooks.

If OG&M has these characteristics, then some attention is needed.

I agree, which is why in the rules forum where we are discussing the "+3 to AC in sunlight" power I mentioned how I will be house ruling it to be related to the "protection from evil" spell, since it not only keeps the power level in line with the rest of the rules, it also connects them to the rules and helps the CK determine what can and cannot stack with it, since they will now know to rule on it the same way they do the spell. Plus, since it makes it redundant, the AC portion of the spell will not stack with this worshipper given ability.

So all at one time, the power is tied in with the established system, and gives the CK's more to work with when they are called upon to adjudicate.

Consistency.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Sir Osis of Liver]

James M. Ward wrote:
Saying a spell is too powerful or not powerful enough is extremely subjective. Steve chided me for some of the spells being too silly and lacking in use. I myself think a beer finding spell is fundamental to the C&C world. I made the spells 'interesting' and only the worshipers can use them which is enough of a limit, in my mind. Also think that the enemies of mankind have their special spells and powers and using them will increase the role-playing fun and danger. I think that alone makes this product worth having.

James M. Ward

Some good points, Jim. I would simply add that I never really saw complaints to the effect that the CK got too much power, thus unbalancing the game unfairly against the players, if the Black Libram was used. I think it's pretty neat to have a means of combating that fire with fire of your own.

[Treebore]

ssfsx17 wrote:
The 1st-3rd-print Barbarian was more hardcore and mature! I started playing C&C with that Barbarian and have very fond memories of him. The PHB 4th-print Barbarian loses all of the flavor, grittiness, old-school-attitude, maturity and toughness of the old one! The old Barbarian would like go all berserk and stuff and eat people's guts after killing them.

Oh yeah, and the M&T 4th print actually has Riding Walrus and Shark stats? WTF? I liked it better when I had to use my imagination to write up the stats for those creatures! It was, like, you know, the way that Steve wanted it, before Peter Bradley and Robert Doyel forced him out of his own company!

I think this new generation of C&C books is evil! Pure evil I say! Eeeeeeeevil! The game is ruined forever!

Indeed! But let us also be clear that we are not belittling the call for consistent rules that fit together and do not cause rules imbalances. I too have seen too much of that happen in other games, and certainly do not want to see it happen with C&C.

The "default" should be consistent with what has come before, then if more, or even less, power is wanted in a given game, then house rules should kick in. However the "core", IE TLG written products, should strive to remain consistent.

Products that step outside that, such as Tainted Lands, should have a standardized blurb saying that this product is designed to take the game outside of the base rules and power scale and the "standard" expectations of the game do not apply.

However, Of Gods and Monsters is already labeled as part of the core 4 for the 4th Crusade, so an effort for consistency should be made.
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[Troll Lord]

Fiffergrund wrote:
The standard that should be used is that if a C&C product introduces powers, items, monsters, spells, or equipment that offer an undue advantage to those using them as opposed to those that are using just the core rules, that product needs some serious scrutiny.

This has nothing to do with what is appropriate for a personal game. It has to do with whether or not new things mesh well with the core rules. The core rules are the standard.

If a splatbook is published with all manner of overpowered spells and items, and they are not balanced against the core game to avoid unfair advantage, then the basic assumptions of the core game are different for those who have the product and those that do not.

Hence the problem with d20 splatbooks.

If OG&M has these characteristics, then some attention is needed.

Yeah, I agree. But there is nothing in here that changes the fundamental rules of the game. There are powers and granted abilities, much like those given in the Aihrde Folio, that characters gain from worshiping certain deities. But as I said, if you want to follow the rules as set down in the book, those abilities can only come if the characters follow the ceremonies and taboos in the very same guidelines.

The fundamental rules of the game do not change with Gods and Monsters. If one buys the book and decides to use it will have the same impact that Black Libram does. And I know this gets into a whole line of discussion about core rules and what is what. But that is one to be held in the TLG marketing and advertising forum.

Mac and I went over these deities and had the very same concerns as voiced here, UNTIL we married the granted abilities with the ceremony and taboo information.

This book is a sweet treatment of the deities, not because of the granted abilities it may or may not give. But because it gives me some very, very powerful deity avatars to use when battling high level characters. This is something the game is horribly deficient in, high level adventure material that is. Plus we have more monsters and more spells and more magic items, another thing the game is horribly deficient in.

Steve
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[cleaverthepit]

My opinion.... no official stance. If it ain't in the core book it ain't a rule but an option.

in looking over the powers and stuff, i was happy. what i was particularly happy with was implementation of deific powers into the common world. In my campaign, should a worshiper of Heimdel be fighting upon a bridge, they automatically recievie a+1 to hit and damage. and the powers roll out. Worshipers of Mortzva (a goblin deity) are allowed one reroll every 24 hours - even the goblins.

which brings me to my point. creatures deities give their worshipers pwoers as well.
)) that could even things out if you find them uneven.

[Omote]

It seems like the easiest way to correct these "issues" is to strongly preface the book with the conditions that tese powers are subject, quite strongly, to the taboos and ceremonies.

~O
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Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Troll Lord]

cleaverthepit wrote:
My opinion.... no official stance. If it ain't in the core book it ain't a rule but an option.

in looking over the powers and stuff, i was happy. what i was particularly happy with was implementation of deific powers into the common world. In my campaign, should a worshiper of Heimdel be fighting upon a bridge, they automatically recievie a+1 to hit and damage. and the powers roll out. Worshipers of Mortzva (a goblin deity) are allowed one reroll every 24 hours - even the goblins.

which brings me to my point. creatures deities give their worshipers pwoers as well.
)) that could even things out if you find them uneven.

Davis brings up a good point. Something that should be addressed here. As CK my NPCs get these same powers, so that alone balances out advantages given in the G&M book.

But I think the implication is, if you are going to purchase this book, that it is a book that includes gods as active participants in the game. So if you are going to include such gods as participants then they can have an impact.

We went over the rules and they don't seem to unbalance anything, unless you don't use the taboos and ceremonies. If you don't use those then heck yeah, they will be unbalancing.

Okay, back to the CKG.
Steve
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Steerpike]

I think the book is great, personally. I was a bit concerned at first glance about some of the bonuses granted to worshippers. As it has played out, though, I think it is going to work out pretty well. I am going with the idea that those bonuses are for the true faithful - those who adhere strictly to the rituals, taboos, and in every way hold themselves out as exemplary embodiments of the ideals that their chosen god represents. If a player wants to roleplay that with their character, then I am happy to provide the bonuses. If they aren't as observant as they should be, then bonuses may be lacking at inopportune times, or may disappear entirely.
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