Rules question

allensh · Post by **allensh** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:16 am

1.) Is it correct that C&C as written does not advocate giving characters maximum HP at 1st level?

2.) Is it true that you do not add your Dexterity modifier to your Initiative roll in the rules as written?

Allen

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:37 am

allensh wrote:
1.) Is it correct that C&C as written does not advocate giving characters maximum HP at 1st level?

Yes

Quote:
2.) Is it true that you do not add your Dexterity modifier to your Initiative roll in the rules as written?

Yes

allensh · Post by **allensh** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:11 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Yes

Yes

Thank you that means I was running it correctly despite the protestations of the players
Allen

P.S. By the way, your art is excellent.

Emryys · Post by **Emryys** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:17 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Yes

Yes

Yikes
Not sure if I will do that but it brings back memories... not all good even!
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:17 am

allensh wrote:
P.S. By the way, your art is excellent.

And, there are rumors circulating that if you fold some of his works up (ah-la MAD magizine style) you get subversive messages!

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:26 am

Quote:
nd, there are rumors circulating that if you fold some of his works up (ah-la MAD magizine style) you get subversive messages!

As of 01:21 EST, 15:SEPT:2006, that rumor has been confirmed, but sources have been hushed into compliant secrecy.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:34 am

I should have kept quiet about that though. Now, for the last 15 minutes some black helicoptors have been circling my house. I'm getting nervous.

I can also confirm the rumors, the artwork on page.....

>

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:49 am

Despite the lack of advocation, I allow maximum HP for first level. I mean come on... I have to generous at least once towards the character. After that, the gloves are OFF!

Moriarty the Red
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:53 am

Waaaaaait, you guys let your players roll HD? I don't. I tell them they have 1.
Makes those damned cats in M&T a-fright-might more daunting!

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:57 am

serleran wrote:
Waaaaaait, you guys let your players roll HD? I don't. I tell them they have 1.

The roll isn't to see what their HP's are, it is to determine if they have a debilitating illness as well. C'mon, we aint sissy CK's.

allensh · Post by **allensh** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:46 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
Despite the lack of advocation, I allow maximum HP for first level. I mean come on... I have to generous at least once towards the character. After that, the gloves are OFF!

Moriarty the Red

I am also thinking of doing that, if only to somewhat mollify the 3e players...I mean, I'm taking away their skills and feats, might as well let 'em keep something
The initiative thing, however, doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Allen

babbage · Post by **babbage** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:01 pm

I keep the initiative as the straight d10. I know there are arguments for adding dex, but there are arguments for adding wis, or because you have better vision, or hearing, or...

A straight d10 is enough for me.
Also, I like to lull my players into a false sense of security by allowing them maximum hit points at level 1. You ought to hear them complain about all the ogres that seem to be around.
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Ghul · Post by **Ghul** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:06 pm

allensh wrote:
1.) Is it correct that C&C as written does not advocate giving characters maximum HP at 1st level?

2.) Is it true that you do not add your Dexterity modifier to your Initiative roll in the rules as written?

Allen

It is true, but I give max HP at 1st level and add dex to the inititiative d10 roll. These are both common house rules. Hell, even some the Trolls themselves might be doing this...

--Ghul

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:36 pm

Not me. In fact, I'm worse as a CK. I make the player roll their HP, but I give the monsters 1.5x their maximum. Of course, I tend to use less monsters (easier to run an encounter if there are only 5 orcs instead of 9, for example... since then, I don't forget to attack with one of them) so it all evens out basically.

As for the initiative thing... eh, my system is somewhat different than the book, but Dex doesn't factor in.

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:13 pm

Anybody use weapon speed factors? Pros and cons?

I am writing up my houserules, looking for any and all info I can get my grubby little paws on.

BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:22 pm

You know, I know that C&C is all about "THE CK IS GOD INCARNATE AND YOU CANNOT EVEN IMAGINE ARGUING WITH HIS ALMIGHTY RULING", but if you keep doing things like forcing a fighter to begin with 1hp because of a lousy roll, you're going to have players quit the game and then end up hating C&C. Or, you'll breed munchkins who roll 20 characters in a row before actually playing one, because they finally rolled max HD AND got half-decent stats.

Remember, the goal of the game is not to give the CK a power trip, it is to have fun. Starting with 1hp is not fun, for anyone ever.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:28 pm

BASH MAN wrote:
You know, I know that C&C is all about "THE CK IS GOD INCARNATE AND YOU CANNOT EVEN IMAGINE ARGUING WITH HIS ALMIGHTY RULING",

Actually, that sounds more like Hackmaster to me.
I allow max HP at level 1 and level 2. after that, roll it and suck it up if it is a bad roll.

I usually go for max at the 1st 2 levels because I can be pretty brutal in what I put the party up against.

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:33 pm

I have mostly run Stormbringer. Which means I am a monster, but it's more fun to be a monster when I have victi...players, so I will give max hit points at first level and probably a bonus, like half CON.

BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:38 pm

My personal rules for HP is instead of rolling your own HD, roll on the following table.

If you normally roll a .... Roll this instead

d4/d3+1

d6/d4+2

d8/d6+2

d10/d8+2

d12/d10+2

That way, evenif a person rolls a 1, they still have deccent HP, because of that extra padding I put in.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:42 pm

Quote:
Starting with 1hp is not fun, for anyone ever.

Not true. I've had many characters with crappy hit points, including a 1E ranger who, on his 2d8, rolled a 2. He didn't get a Con bonus either, as he barely had the stats to be a ranger. You know what he did? He stayed the hell away from combat as much as he could, using his bow. I figured a way to be useful and "fun" without being the tank. Of course, when he leveled, I rolled better, and then he got a little more into fighting directly... but, like everything in the game, it is a challenge to play the character. Some people don't like that kind of challenge, and its fine for them to go with max. However, it is not fair to say that no one can enjoy such things... in fact, I'm the opposite. If you give me too much, I feel like you're coddling me... like I somehow "need" you "cheat."

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:49 pm

Speaking as a person who has no problem playing characters that start out as o level npc's, one hit point characters dont bother me a bit. ^_^
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:23 pm

Since I like throwing things at my players without having to worry too much about HP I am pretty generous with HP in addition to stats.

I kind of do what Bashman suggests, except I have them re-roll.

So:

d4, roll a 1, re-roll until it isn't a 1.

d6 and d8 same thing except on a 1 and/or a 2.

d10 same thing except it is 1-3.

d12 same thing except it is 1-4.

Another element of randomness. I roll too. So after the player gets something higher than the re-roll range they can opt to take my roll. Sometimes they get a higher HP, sometimes they get lower. Generally, on d10 and d12's if they roll a 7 or higher they take their roll, six or lower they take mine. Similiar kind of pattern on the lower HD's.

When the rare person like Ser comes along I let them roll the way they like. I just tell them I ain't going to take it easy on them. My games are hard hitting fantasy where the PC's are the "heroes" that go out and put their lives on the line for wealth, glory, and power. PC's with low HP's and/or stats will have to have a lot of luck and intelligent play to survive to a decent level in my games. Especially if you also refuse to be raised.

I remember only one player that was like Ser describes himself ( I remember having a total of 5 like him over the years), that made it to level 7 in 2E before he finally ran out of luck and died. There was another that started his character at level 5 and made it to 10th, so he actually earned the most xp's while alive.

BTW Ser, your solution on DF worked, which is why I am even able to post this. So thanks!

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:07 pm

I don't mind low hit points, it makes me feel like I have accomplished something to get a PC through a scenario. If I run C&C...I don't know yet what I'll do for beginning hit points, maybe the CON bonus, maybe not. I am more concerned with the inflation of hit points at higher levels, which I definitely do see as a weak point in the game design. The exploding die thingie, I expect.

BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:45 pm

serleran wrote:
Not true. I've had many characters with crappy hit points, including a 1E ranger who, on his 2d8, rolled a 2. He didn't get a Con bonus either, as he barely had the stats to be a ranger. You know what he did? He stayed the hell away from combat as much as he could, using his bow. I figured a way to be useful and "fun" without being the tank. Of course, when he leveled, I rolled better, and then he got a little more into fighting directly... but, like everything in the game, it is a challenge to play the character. Some people don't like that kind of challenge, and its fine for them to go with max. However, it is not fair to say that no one can enjoy such things...

Very well then. Roll for your HP. When the player tells you as the CK--"I would not enjoy playing a fighter with 1hp" he then should let him begin with max. Not everyone likes the challenge of having a crippling weakness. If they do, fine, but if they don't, forcing it on them is not very fun for anybody.
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BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:48 pm

andakitty wrote:
I don't mind low hit points, it makes me feel like I have accomplished something to get a PC through a scenario. If I run C&C...I don't know yet what I'll do for beginning hit points, maybe the CON bonus, maybe not. I am more concerned with the inflation of hit points at higher levels, which I definitely do see as a weak point in the game design. The exploding die thingie, I expect.

Well at least C&C has curbed some of that. No more 20HD fighters running around. You get to 9HD, then you just gain X hp per level. But I know what you mean. What is really ridiculous is when your HP increases by over 1000% just by leveling. A barbarian or monk who rolled a 1 for hp at level one and and a 12 at level 2 would experience this "magic" jump in toughness. 1200% is a big difference!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:50 pm

[quote="BASH MANVery well then. Roll for your HP. When the player tells you as the CK--"I would not enjoy playing a fighter with 1hp" he then should let him begin with max. Not everyone likes the challenge of having a crippling weakness. If they do, fine, but if they don't, forcing it on them is not very fun for anybody.[/quote]

Exactly why I have a generous ability score and HP system. If anyone wants to play a low ability score or HP character they can, but in my experience the VAST majority of players want high scores and hp's. So I let them know up fron how much I'm willing to let them have.

BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:08 am

Treebore wrote:
[quote="BASH MANVery well then. Roll for your HP. When the player tells you as the CK--"I would not enjoy playing a fighter with 1hp" he then should let him begin with max. Not everyone likes the challenge of having a crippling weakness. If they do, fine, but if they don't, forcing it on them is not very fun for anybody.

Exactly why I have a generous ability score and HP system. If anyone wants to play a low ability score or HP character they can, but in my experience the VAST majority of players want high scores and hp's. So I let them know up fron how much I'm willing to let them have.[/quote]

Good for you! You know how to keep players happy! I would be proud to play at your table because I know that you would be a fair and fun CK!

In fact, anybody here up to run a little something? I would like to play in a pbp, if possible! I have only ever run pbps, and would love a chance to just play!
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Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:41 am

I'm of the generous type, my players get more than half the amount of HPs they can get from their HD.

d4 : 1-2 = 3, 3-4 = 4 ; d6 : 1-2 = 4, 3-4 = 5, 5-6 = 6 ; etc.

For one thing, I totally agree that having a 1 HP character sucks bad and is nearly unplayable...as a player I always dreaded rolling for HPs as it can break your character. As a CK, I also hate to roll up (to stay fair, I do not fudge my critters HPs) ridiculous HPs for an important villain (a 20-30 HPs adult dragon is just plain dumb) so I also apply this darwinism to my NPCs and creatures...
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Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:13 am

BASH MAN wrote:
Very well then. Roll for your HP. When the player tells you as the CK--"I would not enjoy playing a fighter with 1hp" he then should let him begin with max.

From complaining about rolling a "1" to getting "max"? I'd let the player reroll, but not give max unless I gave the other player's character's max hp.

As for the topics of this post, I generally give max at 1st level because I as a DM like to throw a good number of encounters at the players. After that they roll their own hp. It's the most common way around where I live. I will also roll and ask them if they want their result or mine where mine is hidden. Sometimes they end up with a lower result.
I do not add Dex to initiative because to me, it all just comes down to luck of the draw. And I also don't want players focused on feeling a need for a high Dex just to be faster in combat. Just roll the dice.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:55 am

Quote:
I am more concerned with the inflation of hit points at higher levels, which I definitely do see as a weak point in the game design.

What inflation? Or, do you mean, the lack of it?

Characters stop gaining HD (that is, rolled amounts) at a specific level, and then gain an amount the average amount thereafter. This is the stark opposite of games like d20 D&D where a 14th level fighter can have 200 HP.

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