So perusing other people's houserules got me to thinking (instead of writing).
I want to open up for discussion refining a few that I may incorporate.
saomeone mentioned using a d20 for int, adding dex, level etc....
My previous houserule (it collapsed upon testing) was to use a d10 for init and add dex (not level). Should someone exceed a 10 (say a 12) then they get another action that round on roll-10 init roll. So if someone rolled a d12 for init, they would be able to act at the 10 point (first) and again at the 2 point (usually last or close to). The problem was too many 11+ rolls and slaughter ensued (works for monsters and NPCs as well).
If I were to use a d20, with a -20 for the second action, it might be workable, what think yall.
Davis
Davis' houserule discussion
Adding actual Dexterity score practically ensures an "above 10" since the very average of the character creation process gives a 9 - 12, which, added to the minimum of 1 on a single die roll means 10+ is virtually guaranteed. It also, as monsters do not have Dexterity scores (I assume you either gave them some, or used their HD as a replacement), means they are at a very severe disadvantage since, unless very difficult to fight already (high HD), they will never get the second actions... which can be good, if the monster already has multiple attacks (ie, a troll.)
So, with two heavy extremes, you look for something that cuts them in twain....
If a PC gets his Dexterity score, this will be an adjustment of +3 - 18, usually.
A monster will have its HD which can range anywhere from 1+
Advantage = PC automatically because they have a minimum of 3 to add, and it takes a pretty naughty (= high level opponent) to balance a 1st level PCs possible advantage.
But how to resolve with some semblance of balance?
Without assigning new statistics to every monster, some other type of rule would be needed:
PCs continue to add Dexterity score, and character initiative is rolled on a d20. This results in a 4 - 38, basically. If the initiative amount exceeds 25, a second action is provided the character. Why 25? Simple -- a character with an 18 Dexterity on a "need 20" would score a second action practically every round, since he would need not but a 2 or better on the roll, and 25 still gives a 9 Dexterity character an opportunity, but not too high (they need a 16+ on the d20, as opposed to an 11, or half the time.) Of course, it does mean a character with an under 5 Dexterity (1 - 4) could never gain additional actions, but I think that is appropriate.
Monsters, however, would need something else, because they don't act the same way... Monsters roll initiative on a d20, as well, and add their Base to Hit (usually their HD). On a score of 18+ (this would, in fact, be very similar to a P Save,) a second action is provided; monsters with multiple attacks, need +3 on the roll, per attack greater than 1.
Some examples to explain how it would work...
PC with 13 Dexterity against a 4 HD ogre:
PC rolls d20 + 13 = 22. No second action this round for the PC. Monster rolls d20 + 4 = 18. Ogre gets to hit twice. PC is in trouble. Good thing he has allies.
PC with 13 Dexterity against a 12 HD, 3 attacker troll:
PC rolls d20+ 13 = 28. Gets a second action. Monster rolls d20 + 12 = 23. Needed 24 (base 18, +6 for having additional attacks already) for additional attack, but has 3 total, which adds +6 to needed roll... failed. Monster is having a bad day.
Yes, it makes things more complicated, but monsters and PCs are not the same thing, and should not be shoehorned into the same set of rules. There is a reason they have a book of their own.
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So, with two heavy extremes, you look for something that cuts them in twain....
If a PC gets his Dexterity score, this will be an adjustment of +3 - 18, usually.
A monster will have its HD which can range anywhere from 1+
Advantage = PC automatically because they have a minimum of 3 to add, and it takes a pretty naughty (= high level opponent) to balance a 1st level PCs possible advantage.
But how to resolve with some semblance of balance?
Without assigning new statistics to every monster, some other type of rule would be needed:
PCs continue to add Dexterity score, and character initiative is rolled on a d20. This results in a 4 - 38, basically. If the initiative amount exceeds 25, a second action is provided the character. Why 25? Simple -- a character with an 18 Dexterity on a "need 20" would score a second action practically every round, since he would need not but a 2 or better on the roll, and 25 still gives a 9 Dexterity character an opportunity, but not too high (they need a 16+ on the d20, as opposed to an 11, or half the time.) Of course, it does mean a character with an under 5 Dexterity (1 - 4) could never gain additional actions, but I think that is appropriate.
Monsters, however, would need something else, because they don't act the same way... Monsters roll initiative on a d20, as well, and add their Base to Hit (usually their HD). On a score of 18+ (this would, in fact, be very similar to a P Save,) a second action is provided; monsters with multiple attacks, need +3 on the roll, per attack greater than 1.
Some examples to explain how it would work...
PC with 13 Dexterity against a 4 HD ogre:
PC rolls d20 + 13 = 22. No second action this round for the PC. Monster rolls d20 + 4 = 18. Ogre gets to hit twice. PC is in trouble. Good thing he has allies.
PC with 13 Dexterity against a 12 HD, 3 attacker troll:
PC rolls d20+ 13 = 28. Gets a second action. Monster rolls d20 + 12 = 23. Needed 24 (base 18, +6 for having additional attacks already) for additional attack, but has 3 total, which adds +6 to needed roll... failed. Monster is having a bad day.
Yes, it makes things more complicated, but monsters and PCs are not the same thing, and should not be shoehorned into the same set of rules. There is a reason they have a book of their own.
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I believe he meant DEX bonus, not the actual attribute score.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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cleaverthepit
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cleaverthepit
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Omote
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Adding a DEX modifer to the initiatve roll is simple and seems like a natural extension of the game. Though, perhaps a SIEGE check can be made for initiative. Best roll goes first?
~O
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Coleston the Cavalier
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I use the d20 for init and I think it works primarily for us as it really reduces simultaneous actions. Which is a blessing and curse to the players depending on who goes first
I like the idea of a second action, but only for fighters, as they need all the help they can to stand out.
Init -20 on a d20 role is nice as it doesn't always give them a second action if they roll low.
Your mileage may vary.
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I like the idea of a second action, but only for fighters, as they need all the help they can to stand out.
Init -20 on a d20 role is nice as it doesn't always give them a second action if they roll low.
Your mileage may vary.
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cleaverthepit wrote:
LOL
yeah....
i was thinking of making it a class based thing as well. Fighter types get to add their level, whereas non-fighter types do not.
I can not think of a good way to do it for monsters. my gut tells me 1/2 HD as a starting point + HD for certain monsters.
What do you mean by fighter types? Just the fighter class or are you including rangers, paladins, barbarians, knights, and possibly the monk?
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boxcornersdiety
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d12
1. I actually like the d12 for init (less likely to need to reroll a d12 during the turn, divisible by 2,3, and 4) though both d10 and d20 are fine.
2. I think adding the dex modifier is a good optional rule for more experienced players. Monsters shouldn't add anything if this is the only modifier.
3. If you are going to add something based on level I think it should be either the characters base bonus to hit or base bonus to hit divided by 2 (I would round down). In this case I would also allow monsters to add bonus of hit dice or half hit dice. This automatically favors warriors and fighters while allowing other classes or monsters the possibility of an extra attack without too much bookkeeping.
4. If you also want extra attacks then one idea is to say that you get an extra attack against an opponent only if you double their initiative total. Subtracting a fixed amount like Davis suggested would also work. Davis, note that you could change this fixed amount for fighters/warriors if you really wanted to give them a bonus (more bookkeeping).
5. I would also have weapons (but not natural attacks, punches, kicks etc) *subtract* their EV from initiative total. This combined with (4) would mean that you have a better chance of an extra attack with small weapons like knives. Weapon reach can also factor in a few ways (automatic win initiative with a longer weapon, longer weapon wins on ties, longer weapon doesn't subtract EV, free swing when someone tries to close in on a longer weapon, etc).
2. I think adding the dex modifier is a good optional rule for more experienced players. Monsters shouldn't add anything if this is the only modifier.
3. If you are going to add something based on level I think it should be either the characters base bonus to hit or base bonus to hit divided by 2 (I would round down). In this case I would also allow monsters to add bonus of hit dice or half hit dice. This automatically favors warriors and fighters while allowing other classes or monsters the possibility of an extra attack without too much bookkeeping.
4. If you also want extra attacks then one idea is to say that you get an extra attack against an opponent only if you double their initiative total. Subtracting a fixed amount like Davis suggested would also work. Davis, note that you could change this fixed amount for fighters/warriors if you really wanted to give them a bonus (more bookkeeping).
5. I would also have weapons (but not natural attacks, punches, kicks etc) *subtract* their EV from initiative total. This combined with (4) would mean that you have a better chance of an extra attack with small weapons like knives. Weapon reach can also factor in a few ways (automatic win initiative with a longer weapon, longer weapon wins on ties, longer weapon doesn't subtract EV, free swing when someone tries to close in on a longer weapon, etc).
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cleaverthepit
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Quote:
OT: It sure is good to see you active on the boards again, Davis
thx. i'm trying to catch up. there are a lot of good ideas floating around.
yall should type up your house rules and format them. then talk steve into making a unique PHB (soft bound) with your house rules in them. LOL
not sure how much that would cost nor copyright issues but,,,,, would be neat
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cleaverthepit
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Quote:
OT: It sure is good to see you active on the boards again, Davis
thx. i'm trying to catch up. there are a lot of good ideas floating around.
yall should type up your house rules and format them. then talk steve into making a unique PHB (soft bound) with your house rules in them. LOL
not sure how much that would cost nor copyright issues but,,,,, would be neat
cleaverthepit wrote:
thx. i'm trying to catch up. there are a lot of good ideas floating around.
yall should type up your house rules and format them. then talk steve into making a unique PHB (soft bound) with your house rules in them. LOL
not sure how much that would cost nor copyright issues but,,,,, would be neat
Or perhaps the Society can host the pdfs on a download page, if printing is too problematic due to cost or copyright issues.
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cleaverthepit wrote:
yall should type up your house rules and format them. then talk steve into making a unique PHB (soft bound) with your house rules in them. LOL
I'd murder for a chance to input my own revisions into the PHB.
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cleaverthepit wrote:
thx. i'm trying to catch up. there are a lot of good ideas floating around.
yall should type up your house rules and format them. then talk steve into making a unique PHB (soft bound) with your house rules in them. LOL
not sure how much that would cost nor copyright issues but,,,,, would be neat
Davis,
My house rules are where they have always been, first page of my online game thread:
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Peter always teases me about how long they are, but is includes my version of TLG's Runemark, as well as rules corrections/clarifications, and how I handle level drains, etc... Plus how I use the SIEGE engine to replace Feats, how I do skills, etc... So it has to be long.
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Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Wasn't it the original intent of the "personalized editions" to do this very thing? To allow a person to have some specific section slightly altered so they could have their very own "official" rulebook? Naturally, something like Treebore's Encyclopedia of New Stuff would be too much to add, but a change to a class, or a new race... something that, say, fit 4-6 pages? I don't know but I recall that was a goal/ thought at some point in the ancient Troll past.
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cleaverthepit
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Yeah, that had been bandied about for a time and it was my personal hope that people would one day submit there own houserules and we could personalize the game for them.
the problem is that we can't get into the text to change the book as that would be far too problematic so were left with people submitting extra pages. i did not think that owuld go over well. however.
as i look at it. one could submit a 4 page document which we should be able to insert either at the end or the beginning of the book as the houserules for that CK or group of players.
I thin it would be neat. it would have to come formatted though. i think i will run a test run across steve's desk this week and see what he thinks.
i may get shot
the problem is that we can't get into the text to change the book as that would be far too problematic so were left with people submitting extra pages. i did not think that owuld go over well. however.
as i look at it. one could submit a 4 page document which we should be able to insert either at the end or the beginning of the book as the houserules for that CK or group of players.
I thin it would be neat. it would have to come formatted though. i think i will run a test run across steve's desk this week and see what he thinks.
i may get shot
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cleaverthepit
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Sounds great.cleaverthepit wrote:
Just ran it by steve again. he said yes. go figure, two years of beating on that door and it opens.
details to follow.
I'm wondering how it is possible that y'all can't go into the book text and modify it directly though. Someone has to submit a text file of some kind to the printers, right?
Perhaps I'm just being stupid though, I've never had professional experience with printing...
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MacLeod wrote:
Sounds great.
I'm wondering how it is possible that y'all can't go into the book text and modify it directly though. Someone has to submit a text file of some kind to the printers, right?
Perhaps I'm just being stupid though, I've never had professional experience with printing...
The Trolls are their own printers now, even for HC's.
Imagine them getting 4,000 orders for customized rules books, then remember its pretty much a 3 to 4 man operation.
It is going to be time consuming enough to just format up each order as it is, to go through and completely lay out new books for each order? MADNESS!!
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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cleaverthepit
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CharlieRock
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Treebore wrote:
The Trolls are their own printers now, even for HC's.
Imagine them getting 4,000 orders for customized rules books, then remember its pretty much a 3 to 4 man operation.
It is going to be time consuming enough to just format up each order as it is, to go through and completely lay out new books for each order? MADNESS!!
Offset printing isn't a 3-4 man operation. Even with all the bindery work. What kind of printing does TLG use?
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gideon_thorne
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MacLeod wrote:
Sounds great.
I'm wondering how it is possible that y'all can't go into the book text and modify it directly though. Someone has to submit a text file of some kind to the printers, right?
Perhaps I'm just being stupid though, I've never had professional experience with printing...
Because the layout person would end up checking himself into a padded room if he had to do this for every single variation of every house rule that people turn in.
Its a huge pain in the ass to put the changes in the text.
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Lord Dynel
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I say that instead of a "personalized PHB" that TLG goes a route like "The Book of House Rules." Have chapters that mirror the PHB, and have the pertaining house rules in each section.
For example, chapter/section 1 is Attributes in the PHB. In the "House Rule Compendium," section 1 is also attributes, and these would be submitted house rules that discuss varying methods to roll for attributes, new attributes, etc. The next section in the PHB is Classes. In the house rule book, this section also discusses classes - new, submitted classes, changes to how existing class abilities work, etc.
I think that would be a better route, IMHO. Maybe credit each house rule (just the name, italicized, after the rule), and maybe even have check boxes by every one, so we can check every house rule we decide to use. I think, ultimately, it would be easier to do a new book than to put TLG through the chore of a different PHB for every person (if I'm reading that right ).
Just my two cents.
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For example, chapter/section 1 is Attributes in the PHB. In the "House Rule Compendium," section 1 is also attributes, and these would be submitted house rules that discuss varying methods to roll for attributes, new attributes, etc. The next section in the PHB is Classes. In the house rule book, this section also discusses classes - new, submitted classes, changes to how existing class abilities work, etc.
I think that would be a better route, IMHO. Maybe credit each house rule (just the name, italicized, after the rule), and maybe even have check boxes by every one, so we can check every house rule we decide to use. I think, ultimately, it would be easier to do a new book than to put TLG through the chore of a different PHB for every person (if I'm reading that right ).
Just my two cents.
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