Does C&C break down at high level play?

Kayolan · Post by **Kayolan** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:16 pm

Someone mentioned earlier that there is a lack of high level C&C modules out there. The reason being that the game "breaks down" around level 12. Is this true (in your experience)? I am in the process of setting up a high level campaign, which could go well above level 12 and was wondering what to expect (and admittedly what to watch out for).

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:39 pm

Talk to Treebore. His home campaign is in the mid to upper teens.

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:56 pm

The scope changes, but no, the game does not break down.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:00 pm

Agreed... it's fine at higher levels.

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:11 pm

Yeah, it doesn't break down. You, as teh CK, need to keep on top of what all the spells do, remember the abilities of the PC's, remember what their magical items allow them to do, but other than getting blind sided by these things if you don't take them into account, nothing breaks down.

Just realize the higher in level they get the more "supers" like the game becomes, so you may have to stretch your boundaries further than you ever have before. Which shouldn't surprise anyone, after all they are powerful enough to kill dragons, demon lords, liches, Prysmal eyes, etc... So you have to be pretty "super".
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Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:22 pm

Treebore wrote:
Just realize the higher in level they get the more "supers" like the game becomes, so you may have to stretch your boundaries further than you ever have before. Which shouldn't surprise anyone, after all they are powerful enough to kill dragons, demon lords, liches, Prysmal eyes, etc... So you have to be pretty "super".

I am super! Thanks for asking!....
Sorry...been watching South Park lately. It's only the second week of class and my deranged brain is already going downhill. This is NOT a good sign.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:08 am

Well, that's good to know, about the higher level game not breaking. My group is not there, yet, but they're getting there.
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:34 am

I'm guessing the forth coming, Of Gods & Monsters would probably be invaluable for higher levels?
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:38 am

Not really, since its more about putting faith into the game then it is about giving you something to beat down.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:40 am

I've heard rumors about higher level character advancement in the CKG...possibly high level gaming tips may also be contained therein.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:23 am

Go0gleplex wrote:
I've heard rumors about higher level character advancement in the CKG...possibly high level gaming tips may also be contained therein.

What he said. I've heard this too.
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:25 am

serleran wrote:
Not really, since its more about putting faith into the game then it is about giving you something to beat down.

Then what are Avatars used for?
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:29 am

Sir Ironside wrote:
Then what are Avatars used for?

To beat you down.
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Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:17 pm

serleran wrote:
Not really, since its more about putting faith into the game then it is about giving you something to beat down.

I already had faith in the game, that's why I bought it in the first place.
Of course, back in the day, some classmates had a campaign where their high-level PC's went across the planes defeating each pantheon from AD&D's DDG book.

It's challenging as a CK to run a high-level campaign, but it can be done. 2e's high-level book and the 1e DMG are good aids for that sort of game.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:25 pm

The CKG is supposed to have the base classes of the PHB from levels 13-24. That is going be some sweet, sweet mullet. The game doesn't seem like it will breakdown at all, but as CK you need to invent some challanges for parties of that level. And were not just talking about uber monsters, though those are fun too. Going by the PHB, the Legend Lore spell indicates that characters of 10th level or higher are legends. To me it seems like characters of this level can impact the very fabric of the setting. For example they could be powerful leaders with hundred of NPCs or more under their control (see new Barbarian Ancestral Calling ability for more info on the ease of obtaining NPCs at this level!). This will make the even higher levels (20+) that much more interesting I think for the C&C game.

Overall though, I think, and of course depending on your CK, that a game of this high level is a different type of fantasy roleplaying experience. It's certainly not the good ole' Meet-at-a-Tavern and hear rumors of the haunting of some nearby ruins, at least IMO.

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redbeard · Post by **redbeard** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:15 pm

What I am curious about specifically is what the game is like when some SIEGE checks are so vastly different and saving throws are so high.

How does it feel when a class ability check is +10 or more higher than a regular ability check?

What does it do when all saving throws range from +10 to +20?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:28 pm

Difficulties either scale above the player's save bonuses, because the monsters faced by high level characters tend to have very high HD, or they are minuscule because there are more to make. So, it pretty much bell curves, with average difficulties being what they have always faced... that is, the same sort of expected results. Some argue this is a flaw, but it is because a party of 12th level PCs is not expected to continually battle 12th level opponents... something of that power is expected to be somewhat rare.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:01 pm

serleran wrote:
Difficulties either scale above the player's save bonuses, because the monsters faced by high level characters tend to have very high HD, or they are minuscule because there are more to make. So, it pretty much bell curves, with average difficulties being what they have always faced... that is, the same sort of expected results. Some argue this is a flaw, but it is because a party of 12th level PCs is not expected to continually battle 12th level opponents... something of that power is expected to be somewhat rare.

Exactly. A door lock is going to be of the same CL, no matter what level they are. Some things just aren't going to be at the character's level. And there'll still be saves that are non-Prime.
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Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:06 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
Exactly. A door lock is going to be of the same CL, no matter what level they are. Some things just aren't going to be at the character's level. And there'll still be saves that are non-Prime.

Yeah, but when 1d20 spears dipped in save or die poison come out of the wall next to the door, things get interesting.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:15 pm

There's a solution to all this number gibberish. Stop challenging the characters and challenge the players instead. Wont matter if all the +'s line up at whatever level then.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:30 am

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
Yeah, but when 1d20 spears dipped in save or die poison come out of the wall next to the door, things get interesting.

That's why the burly Con-Prime types go up front...so they can take the hit.

gideon_thorne wrote:
There's a solution to all this number gibberish. Stop challenging the characters and challenge the players instead. Wont matter if all the +'s line up at whatever level then.

I do that most of the time, myself. Sometimes, though, the little numbers on the sheet on front of them need a challenge, too.
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:45 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
There's a solution to all this number gibberish. Stop challenging the characters and challenge the players instead. Wont matter if all the +'s line up at whatever level then.

This is an excellent idea. At our next session I will chase the players around the house with a crowbar whilst screaming, "DEX CHECK! DEX CHECK!!!!!!"

Fat Dragon Games · Post by **Fat Dragon Games** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:53 pm

Dude- just use Zocchi 8 siders launched with a rubber band between two fingers, sometimes they'll even draw blood!
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:55 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
There's a solution to all this number gibberish. Stop challenging the characters and challenge the players instead. Wont matter if all the +'s line up at whatever level then.

Bah. I invent stories to entertain people while playing characters in a game they love. Games have numbers and fiddly mechanical bits to manipulate, hence the reason C&C is called a game. Some people may go out of their way to challange the players themselves, but C&C is a story game about characters. Challange the characters and try to teach the players to play those characters, not themselves.

Since C&C is a game of numbers that tell a story, I think those numbers are inherently important, and far from gibberish.

~O
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JediOre · Post by **JediOre** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:14 pm

I'm curious about the fighting classes, excluding the fighter, only have one attack per round. Does that really weaken them in combat with high level monsters like dragons?

I've been toying with using some form of the multi-melee attack table from the Unearthed Arcana or the old Players Handbook. Any thoughts?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:29 pm

JediOre wrote:
I'm curious about the fighting classes, excluding the fighter, only have one attack per round. Does that really weaken them in combat with high level monsters like dragons?

I've been toying with using some form of the multi-melee attack table from the Unearthed Arcana or the old Players Handbook. Any thoughts?

I find it greatly weakens them. By 10th level Fighters have a +2/+2 Specialization and 2 attacks per round, clearly making them the dominant fighting force on the battle field.

The impact is somewhat offset by my allowing a SIEGE check to get off extra attacks in a round, but fighters get it too. So it doesn't work perfectly.

I am not sure what I want to do, if anything, to balance it out a bit more.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:35 pm

Treebore wrote:
I am not sure what I want to do, if anything, to balance it out a bit more.

I'd suggest just extending the fighters combat dominance ability to other combat oriented classes at higher levels.
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Post by **finarvyn** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:59 pm

My personal belief is that all RPGs are "broken" somewhat at higher levels, but C&C is certainly no worse than any others.

The problem is that with a d20 dice roll as you continue to advance in levels eventually you find that the bonuses tend to overshadow the dice roll. While one can adjust play style upon reaching those levels, I personally prefer to simply cap characters around level 10 or so and then have the players start new ones. (I find 2d6 rules systems like Decipher's Lord of the Rings to be even worse since you hit the top of the scale that much faster.) When I want a campaign where success is nearly automatic I run my players though Amber Diceless. When I want a campaign where success or failure is more uncertain I stick to OD&D or C&C and keep levels lower.

Just the way I do it. Nothing is broken in the rules, but I can see where a person unwilling to adjust play style might be fooled into thinking that it might be.
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Kayolan · Post by **Kayolan** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:42 am

Thanks for the responses all, your posts have been helpful.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:43 am

Kayolan wrote:
Someone mentioned earlier that there is a lack of high level C&C modules out there. The reason being that the game "breaks down" around level 12. Is this true (in your experience)? I am in the process of setting up a high level campaign, which could go well above level 12 and was wondering what to expect (and admittedly what to watch out for).

At higher levels it is harder to linearly predict where the game will go, thus presenting a challenge for module writers. Also, most people don't play higher levels. Hence a lesser market for them. The A series of C&C modules is expected to go pretty high as well as the HH series.

Be ready to improvise
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Does C&C break down at high level play?

Does C&C break down at high level play?

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