So what's this I hear Jim Ward is killing TLG?

[gideon_thorne]

Frost wrote:
Ok, this may sound like a dumb question, but how does one play C&C without M & T? I've heard that said many times, but I don't understand that. For example, if I own no other RPG books and only have the C&C PH, where am I going to get my monsters? Sure, you can make your own monsters but the details on how to do so are in M&T.

Ah well. That's easy. For players to play the game they need the PHB. For a CK to run the game, the M&T and PHB are needed.
Although, Treebore is, essentially, correct. One could run an entirely humanoid centric game with just the PHB.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Dagger]

Omote wrote:
All this is, is conforming to what a few internet personalities think should be done.

That bothers me too.
_________________
Rusty

[serleran]

No, everyone needs at least three M&Ts. Get out there and buy them up. Now.
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[Treebore]

serleran wrote:
No, everyone needs at least three M&Ts. Get out there and buy them up. Now.

I have 4, so quota not only met, but exceeded.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Troll Lord]

serleran wrote:
No, everyone needs at least three M&Ts. Get out there and buy them up. Now.

What he said!

Steve
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[serleran]

4 of each printing? I don't think so.
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[gideon_thorne]

serleran wrote:
4 of each printing? I don't think so.

*chuckles* Well, Tree probably does.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

No, I don't. The PH's are a different story. As for M&T's I have one of the 1st and 2nd printings, and 1 soft cover 3rd printing and 1 HC 4th printing. So 4 total.

Now when it comes to the PH's, I have one 1st printing, and 5 of the 2nd and 3rd printings and only 2 of the 4th printings so far. So 13 so far. I will be ordering 5 of the customized PH's in the next day or two, so I will eventually have 18.

Edit: and I will be ordering 1 HC of the 4th printing, so I will have 19.

Yeah, I have never, ever, come close to owning this many copies of a given rule book in my life. I think my previous record is 5.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Frost]

Treebore wrote:

Ha, I wasn't speaking of myself personally. I have M&T and tons of monster books from the various editions. I was thinking of a person whose first RPG book was the C&C PH.

I guess my problem with saying "you only need the C&C to play" is that there really isn't explicit explanations about the "bad guys."
_________________
Lord Frost

Baron of the Pitt
Castles & Crusades Society
The Dungeoneering Dad

[Troll Lord]

Wasgo emailed me with a great idea about a link not explaining what you do and don't need but rather a link that explains who uses this book.

PH: You need this book.

MT: The CK needs this.

CKG: Everyone Can use this

TYpe of thing.

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Treebore]

Treebore wrote:
Ha, I wasn't speaking of myself personally. I have M&T and tons of monster books from the various editions. I was thinking of a person whose first RPG book was the C&C PH.

I guess my problem with saying "you only need the C&C to play" is that there really isn't explicit explanations about the "bad guys."

Well, that is something the Trolls can consider clearing up in the future. However I think once people strain their brain a bit they will "get" how they would have to make up NPC's as the opponents until they came up with monsters. Or bought the M&T, came to this website to get freebie monsters, etc...
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[dachda]

Troll Lord wrote:
Wasgo emailed me with a great idea about a link not explaining what you do and don't need but rather a link that explains who uses this book.

PH: You need this book.

MT: The CK needs this.

CKG: Everyone Can use this

TYpe of thing.

Steve

Good idea. Kudos to Wasgo. Though how to get that info to the folks picking up the game at their flgs as opposed to checking out the website prior to purchase?
_________________
Sir Dachda McKinty,

Margrave and Knight of Portlandia
Castles & Crusades Society

[gideon_thorne]

dachda wrote:
Good idea. Kudos to Wasgo. Though how to get that info to the folks picking up the game at their flgs as opposed to checking out the website prior to purchase?

Well, most people, when they go to a store, actually open the book and read through the first few pages, especially the introduction, to get an idea of the game. And on page 5, as I mentioned earlier, it covers this subject.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Breakdaddy]

Troll Lord wrote:
Wasgo emailed me with a great idea about a link not explaining what you do and don't need but rather a link that explains who uses this book.

PH: You need this book.

MT: The CK needs this.

CKG: Everyone Can use this

TYpe of thing.

Steve

Nice idea from Wasgo

[Wasgo]

dachda wrote:
Good idea. Kudos to Wasgo. Though how to get that info to the folks picking up the game at their flgs as opposed to checking out the website prior to purchase?

I think the best option for the books would have been to specify the appropriate information on the back cover. But as they've already been printed, I think the only option remaining is to rely on word of mouth and demos to give people a sense of what they need to play.

Expecting that potential buyers will flip through the books and decide to read the spiel on page five of the PHB doesn't seem realistic to me, especially considering that the current edition of the book isn't even in stores yet. It is certainly counter-intuitive to how I shop. Personally, when looking for new RPG material, I look at the cover and then flip through pages at random. If I'm very interested, I may try to figure out what I need to play, which in this case, would hopefully lead me to eventually figure out that all I need to play is the PHB and possibly M&T.

The disadvantage of that approach is that you lose the opportunity to use the fact that only 1 or 2 books are required to play as a sales feature. They'll most likely have to decide that they're interested before they figure that out.

Unfortunately though, I don't think any sort of one page flyer, or additional information would help at this point, as the usage rate of that sort of material is very low, and most of the time will be thrown out, or ignored by shop owners. To me, it seems that the best approach left is just relying on word of mouth and encouraging shop owners to be more aware of the advantages of C&C.

[Troll Lord]

Wasgo wrote:
I think the best option for the books would have been to specify the appropriate information on the back cover. But as they've already been printed, I think the only option remaining is to rely on word of mouth and demos to give people a sense of what they need to play.

Expecting that potential buyers will flip through the books and decide to read the spiel on page five of the PHB doesn't seem realistic to me, especially considering that the current edition of the book isn't even in stores yet. It is certainly counter-intuitive to how I shop. Personally, when looking for new RPG material, I look at the cover and then flip through pages at random. If I'm very interested, I may try to figure out what I need to play, which in this case, would hopefully lead me to eventually figure out that all I need to play is the PHB and possibly M&T.

The disadvantage of that approach is that you lose the opportunity to use the fact that only 1 or 2 books are required to play as a sales feature. They'll most likely have to decide that they're interested before they figure that out.

Unfortunately though, I don't think any sort of one page flyer, or additional information would help at this point, as the usage rate of that sort of material is very low, and most of the time will be thrown out, or ignored by shop owners. To me, it seems that the best approach left is just relying on word of mouth and encouraging shop owners to be more aware of the advantages of C&C.

Hallo,

It actually does say it on the back of the PH and MT. The PH says "everything you need to play is in this book." The MT says something like "Wealth of Info for the Castle Keeper..." Remembering that everyone needs the PH, players and CKs as the combat rules and Siege mechanic are in there.

The books reflect what the webpage does not by and large.

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Wasgo]

Troll Lord wrote:
The books reflect what the webpage does not by and large.

Fair enough. In this case, I was just going from memory and dachda's comment, as I don't have the books in front of me at work. I should have remembered that though, as that's probably one of the reasons I decided to buy the books in the first place.

[Troll Lord]

haha I couldn't remember either, i had to pull them out!

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Just out of curiosity, as I didn't start hitting the boards until after I got into C&C last year, have any of the other big players in terms of boards seen the chronic and just plain mean-spirited bitching about a single author as has been the case here, or is this a relatively unique phenomenon? I've heard sporadic complaining about one or two from different companies along the way, but do other prominent authors have to take this kind of BS on a frequent a basis as he does?

I loved the sentiment that was expressed earlier in this thread that if the detractors think they can do better, ante up, get in the box and take your best hack at it. See if they can do as well as the industry veteran. If they can, more power to them. But if you're going to gripe about how it's written, at least do the rest of the world the courtesy of checking your own grammar before you hit submit.

[gideon_thorne]

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
Just out of curiosity, as I didn't start hitting the boards until after I got into C&C last year, have any of the other big players in terms of boards seen the chronic and just plain mean-spirited bitching about a single author as has been the case here, or is this a relatively unique phenomenon? I've heard sporadic complaining about one or two from different companies along the way, but do other prominent authors have to take this kind of BS on a frequent a basis as he does?

Yes. Gary got it, Frank Gets it, Tim gets it. Any time anyone does well in the publishing industry, either author or artist, you're going to get arm chair quarter backing from all the folks who say 'they could do it better.'

Part of the business really. There's always going to be a vocal minority trying to get their 15 minutes by tearing down the creative efforts of others.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Sir Osis of Liver]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Yes. Gary got it, Frank Gets it, Tim gets it. Any time anyone does well in the publishing industry, either author or artist, you're going to get arm chair quarter backing from all the folks who say 'they could do it better.'

Part of the business really. There's always going to be a vocal minority trying to get their 15 minutes by tearing down the creative efforts of others.

I guess this is my first time experiencing it in a public forum. I'm sure there are always going to be critics out there. It's one thing when the criticism is constructive. It's another when it's as protracted and vitriolic as it's gotten here from time to time.

[Traveller]

Troll Lord wrote:
Just for those of you who don't know, Traveler has been a long time supporter of C&C, so we do value his opinion and appreciate his comments. But his opinions are subject to scrutiny as are everyone who is attempting to participate in the forward movement of the Crusade and has, as he definitely has, done so in the past.

But we are clarifying the language even now.

Steve

As I mentioned in a PM earlier, I normally am not critical of things TLG does. This thing about "core" is one of those things I have to be critical of. It's good to see something being done to address the issue. I'm just glad the specific idea didn't come from me, as that makes the idea more credible.

I now depart this thread as I came into it, ass end first.
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My small homage to E.G.G.

[seskis281]

Peter's certainly right about the crap guys like Frank, Tim & Gary have gotten...

And to be fair there's always piling-on on various boards for those from other eras as well...

One particular board all you have to do is mention David "Zeb" Cook and you'll see venom as bad if not worse, and certainly I've seen vindictive attacks at some of the newer well-known names in RPG writing as well.... Monte Cook and Eric Mona (especially since the advent of 4th edition), I've seen threads and posts evicerating Andy Collins (who I don't like as a writer personally, but as with this one I think there's a difference from simply saying "not a fan" and attacking on such a low level)....

One thread I seem to remember from another forum was a lambasting of Jonathan Tweet, one of 3.x's main designers, because of his personal political/social stances - transferring and evaluating the work not on any merits of dislike for the work itself but because those invested hated him personally.

I've always said I think the detached and impersonal nature of forum boards is used as an excuse for people to completely abandon their personal communication filters and begin imposing their most negative traits - and reasonable dislike for x, y or z becomes "invested hate" for the names attached.... doesn't make any real sense, but it happens.

I may not be a fan of 4e, but I have no personal animosity towards Mike Mearls or its designers. I don't think he or his other co-writers are "evil destroyers of D&D," they just created a product that fits their paradigms and their own market plan. But often you'll hear that level of animosity. How we react to it is, of course, most likely based on our own tastes as well - more upset when we hear those we have a connection to (as with Jim here) than those who work with co.'s and games we may not be into.

Just my 2 cents.

_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

[gideon_thorne]

seskis281 wrote:
I've always said I think the detached and impersonal nature of forum boards is used as an excuse for people to completely abandon their personal communication filters and begin imposing their most negative traits - and reasonable dislike for x, y or z becomes "invested hate" for the names attached.... doesn't make any real sense, but it happens.

Course it makes sense. There's endless history to show how people can turn into proper bastards when hiding behind a 'mask'. These days, the mask is called the internet.

And I agree. I think a lot of this stuff just gets way out of hand. One ought to be able to simply say "I don't like xyz product, and why" and be done; without all the histrionics.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Sir Osis of Liver]

seskis281 wrote:
I may not be a fan of 4e, but I have no personal animosity towards Mike Mearls or its designers. I don't think he or his other co-writers are "evil destroyers of D&D," they just created a product that fits their paradigms and their own market plan. But often you'll hear that level of animosity. How we react to it is, of course, most likely based on our own tastes as well - more upset when we hear those we have a connection to (as with Jim here) than those who work with co.'s and games we may not be into.

That's just it, though. That comment alone on any other board would get you piled on with all sorts of venom as a 4e hater. I just haven't been around these circles enough to see the vitriol against some of the others.

I talk with my wallet. If I like it, I buy it. If I don't, I don't. I've gotten all three of Jim's releases for C&C that I'm aware of. For 4e, the only thing I've gotten is the PHB. 'Nuff said.

[gideon_thorne]

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
That's just it, though. That comment alone on any other board would get you piled on with all sorts of venom as a 4e hater. I just haven't been around these circles enough to see the vitriol against some of the others.

If I ever see you at a convention, remind me to tell you some stories. When I first got on the various gaming forums, I encountered some truly unbelievable stuff too.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[serleran]

How do I get in on the lamb basting?
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[Sir Osis of Liver]

gideon_thorne wrote:
If I ever see you at a convention, remind me to tell you some stories. When I first got on the various gaming forums, I encountered some truly unbelievable stuff too.

I look forward to it. What's yer poison?

[gideon_thorne]

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
I look forward to it. What's yer poison?

Iocane Powder. Its colourless, odourless and dissolves instantly in water.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Sir Osis of Liver]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Iocane Powder. Its colourless, odourless and dissolves instantly in water.

Ah yes. Iocane. I've spent the last several years of my life developing a tolerance to the stuff. Have fun storming the castle.