So what's this I hear Jim Ward is killing TLG?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:21 pm

Yeah, there are some "powers" and items in "Of Gods and Monsters" that I likely will alter or never use as well.

Tainted Lands is pretty much a creature all its own.

However both have a lot of good material to offer and certainly are not written at the 12 year old reading level, etc...

As for the reviewer, maybe I not being clear enough, in the thread in question he chimes in and blatantly says its his job to persuade the readers to see things his way and that apparently he needs to sharpen up his writing skills since he seems to be failing to do so.

That is not writing reviews, that is writing propaganda.
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ssfsx17 · Post by **ssfsx17** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:45 pm

Just so we're all clear - when you guys suspect a specific individual, you are talking about a specific individual who is public about the fact that he has a mental disorder, right?
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:03 pm

Celebrate diversity and freedom of speech!

Even if you don't agree with the review is it any better to make fun and call names?

IMHO the review has done much in the free publicity department.

I don't do boxed sets out of principle, but the controversy may lead me to purchase one.

Wow...after reading some of the responses i have to read the review and get the game I think, if only to lambaste and rant whichever party I deem deserving...ooh ooh aah aah.

In my youth I have learned there are basically 3 types of people. Doers (Folks that get things done), watchers (Folks that watch others getting things done), and critics (Folks too scared to do things themselves and too bitter to enjoy when others do).
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:04 pm

seskis281 wrote:
someone on the thread mentioned art that was "pixilated" - am assuming he means the maps in my 2 adventures so far, as they're the only ones I know to have a little pixilated bit-mappy edginess to them, and that's because I use paint and Neroshop (my limited resources) to make 'em....

Not only that but there have been pictures that pixilated but not many and not a big deal. I am **** over there and like anyone else I gave my opinion and didn't mind defending Mr.Ward or TLG. Not because I am a Fanboy (I am a Fanboy about nothing, I'll give- hopefully- constructive criticism, as much as praise.) but because I felt Mr. Ward and TLG was unfairly being criticized by someone who seemed to have a axe to grind.

Fortunately or unfortunately (Depends on how you look at it) Mr. MacLennan does all his reviews in that style. He also has a good track record at reviews and usually hits the nail on the head. So, a lot of people listen to his reviews. I can't say if he was right on or not, but his words will affect what some of the people will do and buy. You can't judge a reviewer by one review. I stated I wasn't going to buy Tainted Lands because of this. My dollars only stretch so far so my decisions have to based on that. Maybe one day I'll pick it up, but like I also said you can't judge all of TLG on that one project. Otherwise I wouldn't have resubscribed to The Crusader or have all the "Core" books on order.

I do think that those that did participate in that thread probably wasn't a TLG crowd anyway, so no loss no foul.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:18 am

Joe wrote:
Celebrate diversity and freedom of speech!

Even if you don't agree with the review is it any better to make fun and call names?

*chuckles* Well, clearly, some folks are celebrating their diverse free speech by calling a dolt a dolt.
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Benoist · Post by **Benoist** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:34 am

James M. Ward wrote:
I would urge you all to ignore such trash. Comments against such folks only feed their ego.

Please just prove him wrong by buying the product.

I've been writing successful product for over 30 years. That's proof enough for me that I'm on the right path.

James M. Ward

I'm sorry, James. I'm guessing, particularly from the last sentence, that it must have hurt to read that review. Heck, anybody here who would have written an adventure, a setting, a sourcebook, whatever game material for a game they love would have felt hurt after reading a review like this.

But it's okay. There are people who like your work, and that's what really counts.

Keep writing for them.

Game on, Jim.
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Coleston the Cavalier · Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:02 am

I don't think this mysterious posters is Julian.

Julian is mighty busy with college classes to post much lately.

I could be wrong, but I haven't seen him post but once or twice in the last month.
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:08 am

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
I don't think this mysterious posters is Julian.

Julian is mighty busy with college classes to post much lately.

I could be wrong, but I haven't seen him post but once or twice in the last month.

I don't think it's Julian, either. However, judging by his blog posts, I doubt we'll see him posting in these parts any time soon.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:58 am

I've been reading Julian's blog, and read the blog post back in August that mentioned why he left here. While he could have handled things differently if he could, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he said. Some of what he said was filled with obvious frustration. He felt his concerns were being ignored by Jim, and thus the message presented to him was that his opinions didn't matter. Now, I'm familiar with both sides of the spectrum. I ignore the opinions of others and have had my opinions ignored. Sometimes I'm very "in your face" regarding an opinion presented to me. Fortunately for everyone, I don't think I've had to do it here.

Now, in his post, he mentions the changes to Crusader. I find that the changes were necessary in order to bring Crusader to the level of consistency that a monthly magazine MUST have. Slipped deadlines means slipped sales which means a slippery slope into the dustbin of history.

Later, he mentions Of Gods & Monsters and Tainted Lands, believing that those two items delayed other projects. I find myself unable to disagree with him. Do I think that Julian has more than a little bias in blaming Jim for the delays? Yes. However, slipping schedules have occured at TLG and continue to occur. There are rumblings in other sectors of the Internet other than the places most of us tend to frequent concerning the health of TLG. One even mentioned that TLG was a year or two from failure. Now granted, I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it, because I quite honestly have better things to do than to ruminate for hours on end over the health of a company that puts out a game I like. If the company goes belly up and the game is killed, is it going to affect me? Oh it will sting a bit because of the amount of time I have spent in helping the game along since the 1st printing. But, while I wholeheartedly support Castles & Crusades, the only reason I have the rules at all is to serve as a bridge. I'll play it. I'll CK it. I'll enjoy it.

I would prefer OD&D, specifically my pastiche of the game rules.

There. I said it. I fully support Castles & Crusades, and will pimp it whenever possible. It's one of the few if only legal alternatives for "classic" gaming.

That said, the scattershot release schedule does in fact hurt the game. The loyal core will wait until the sun goes dark for release X. Proof of that is in the Castle Keeper Guide. Four or five years out and it still isn't done...yet the loyal core waits. Your casual consumer isn't going to wait. They'll find something else.

Questionable marketing decisions hurt the game. For years now, we've been crowing that the game only required two books to actually play. Now we're seen as liars, no matter how you spin it. The only way I can see to minimize the damage is to put a big blurb somewhere on the CKG and OGM that they are optional and not needed for play. I guess I'm concerned that it won't be enough.

Julian believes that with four core books and a fan base that wants C&C to be AD&D reborn there is no hope for the game. Castles & Crusades to him has lost its way and degenerated into an AD&D clone, which is something to have been avoided. As for me, I won't worry one way or another. I believe I've highlighted what I see as the main issues regarding the game, but unlike Julian, I have hope that Jim's success in getting Crusader on a regular monthly schedule can translate over into the rest of the product lines and not turn us into another Palladium Books.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:00 am

Frost wrote:
I don't think it's Julian, either. However, judging by his blog posts, I doubt we'll see him posting in these parts any time soon.

Yeah, it isn't JG, he has moved on to other "old school gaming" to care enough to post such a thing. Plus I think he would have posted here, not there, if he did have such an issue. He may think we didn't want him here, but he also isn't afraid of being confrontational.
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:21 am

Traveller wrote:
I have hope that Jim's success in getting Crusader on a regular monthly schedule can translate over into the rest of the product lines and not turn us into another Palladium Books.

The irony is, Palladium is a very successful company... despite the decisions of Kevin Siembieda, which IMO would've killed any other company.

I'd say a truer comparison would be Eden Studios... they are not dead they just haven't released anything new in years.

I feel for TLG because right now they seem like the tempest in the teapot. People like me are drawn to C&C because of the old game feel. Others want a more progressive game that compares to things like the existing D&D. And then there are all those naysayers and fans that populate the middle. You can't please all the people all the time.

It is a difficult thing enough to brand your company the way you want, and to be known as the company that has the old game feel with clearer update rules is a pretty good identity to have IMO. To take on the likes of D&D4e is pure folly. If people want to play that style, they are going to buy D&D 4e not C&C.

None the less, I don't listen to the doomsayers, a company that is just about to go under doesn't have a aggressive release schedule like TLG.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:28 am

Anyone who think the good Julian would be responsible doesn't know Julian; he has bigger sacs.
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ssfsx17 · Post by **ssfsx17** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:30 am

Sir Ironside wrote:
None the less, I don't listen to the doomsayers, a company that is just about to go under doesn't have a aggressive release schedule like TLG.

Definitely agreed - there is no way that TLG can be doing what it is doing and not be securing the bank
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:34 am

Traveller wrote:
Questionable marketing decisions hurt the game. For years now, we've been crowing that the game only required two books to actually play. Now we're seen as liars, no matter how you spin it.

Well, nothing has changed. The game does only require two books.
An optional book can still be a core book for the system. It doesn't mean the book is essential.
*chuckles* And I too have seen the posts where its said TLG is going under. Load of crap from bitter personages. TLG has already outlasted such doomsayer predictions and is still growing.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:36 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Well, nothing has changed. The game does only require two books.
An optional book can still be a core book for the system. It doesn't mean the book is essential.
*chuckles* And I too have seen the posts where its said TLG is going under. Load of crap from bitter personages. TLG has already outlasted such doomsayer predictions and is still growing.

No, but clear marketing about what books are essential is... essential, and that is biting, and will continue to bite, TLG in the ass until that changes.
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:45 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
An optional book can still be a core book for the system. It doesn't mean the book is essential.

You know there were people going off about this over at RPGnet. I couldn't understand why they were so upset. I made the comparison to GURPS. GURPS has the two Core books, but they consider books like Fantasy, Magic, Space, Martial Arts, Bio Tech and others core books for each genre you want to play. And I don't hear anyone complain that they are being screwed because you only need two GURPS books to play GURPS.

I see that thread has reached massive proportions over there. I haven't bothered to dip back into it because it is following the tried and true formula of people trying to be smart, smarmy and superior. Basically not listening to the other side, just dismissing it and I see they've brought out their precious zebra already. Anybody from here trying to defend Mr. Ward I suggest you stop now as it is going to go nowhere, it is just a farce now.

There is a silver lining I'll bet. I'll guess that there is a spike of people looking at the TLG web page now.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:51 am

Treebore wrote:
No, but clear marketing about what books are essential is... essential, and that is biting, and will continue to bite, TLG in the ass until that changes.

Really doesn't seem to be affecting TLG much, far as I can see. Sure, folks on the internet seem to go into hysterics over minor nits every 2 seconds, but when I go to shows and talk about the game, no one really seems to give a damn. A new book is a new book.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:53 am

Sir Ironside wrote:
You know there were people going off about this over at RPGnet. I couldn't understand why they were so upset.

Its the internet. People get upset if a period is out of place. I'd go over there and suggest folks take up jogging to shake off all that excess testosterone, but that would be as futile as trying to change anyone's mind on the net, about anything.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:55 am

Sir Ironside wrote:
You know there were people going off about this over at RPGnet. I couldn't understand why they were so upset. I made the comparison to GURPS. GURPS has the two Core books, but they consider books like Fantasy, Magic, Space, Martial Arts, Bio Tech and others core books for each genre you want to play. And I don't hear anyone complain that they are being screwed because you only need two GURPS books to play GURPS.

I see that thread has reached massive proportions over there. I haven't bothered to dip back into it because it is following the tried and true formula of people trying to be smart, smarmy and superior. Basically not listening to the other side, just dismissing it and I see they've brought out their precious zebra already. Anybody from here trying to defend Mr. Ward I suggest you stop now as it is going to go nowhere, it is just a farce now.

There is a silver lining I'll bet. I'll guess that there is a spike of people looking at the TLG web page now.

Not to mention the current D&D, you don't HAVE to have all 3 PH's, DMG's and MM's to play.

I've been doing fine on game days with just the PH 1 so far.

Still, it would help clear things up if TLG would clearly distinguish "essential" versus "handy".

Which perception does TLG want people to have when they first look at C&C?

Only one, maybe 2 books are needed, or 4 books are needed?

Right now it appears that 4 books are needed, and unless they have someone there in "the know" that perception is what is going to turn them away.
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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:17 am

Frost wrote:
I also love me some Gamma World!

Gamma World definitely rocks. (I think Gamma World is the perfect vehicle for Jim's style and approach.)
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Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:04 am

I don't think I ever heard anybody at the Trolls' booth at this past GenCon telling people that they had to have OG&M to play the game. Now granted, I didn't spend all my time at the con hovering at the booth, but anytime I was in the main hall, I stopped by and chatted. The message as I understand it really hasn't changed. All you really need to play the game are the two books. Everything else, neat though it may be, is just gravy.

As the C&C Society is ramping up its activities, that's probably a message we need to think long and hard about as we're out plugging for the game. If that message has changed, I'd love to hear it, but I've never heard anybody say that, even though CKG and OG&M are being branded as core books, they're not required to play the game. But they're worthwhile things to have, as one gives CKs substantial advice on running games (EDIT: based on what we've seen so far, in the teasers that have shown up in The Crusader) , and the other gives CKs and players alike ideas for C&C faiths & pantheons, as well as how to format your own should you decide to use something other than what's in the "core" rulebook.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:18 pm

In a current C&C game I play with 7 people, 6 of them have zero interest in all of these internets rumblings. Think about that for a second. All of this clamouring may only be listened to by 14% of the people that play the C&C game. If that is the case, then most of the people who play C&C couldn't care less about this argument. Just a minor observation.

~O
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:19 pm

I'm not often critical of TLG but as mentioned in a prior post, the one about the C&C gift set, the labeling of the PHB, M&T, OGM, and the CKG as core is going to bite them in the ass. Really. That is the point where Julian felt C&C jumped the shark. While I personally can distinguish the difference between what is needed (PHB, M&T) and what isn't (OGM, CKG), the average joe on the street who has never read this forum and possibly doesn't even bother with the Internet may not be able to tell the difference. I have to admit though that I see where he's coming from. AD&D used to be a three book system (PHB, MM, DMG) but with the release of the DDG became a four book system. Subsequent monster volumes and Unearthed Arcana turned it into a seven book system. This happened because TSR never explicitly stated that these were optional books, and so every DM felt compelled to use them. Another example would be Classic Traveller, in that only Books 1-3 are actually required to play the game, but the game system eventually expanded to eight books, nine if you included Book 0: Introduction to Traveller. Because each LBB was labeled as "Book X", they were assumed to be core when in reality they should have been supplements.

If you have material that is not essential to the running of the game, label it as a supplement. It's deceptive to label it anything else, or to not label it at all.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:43 pm

Quote:
All of this clamouring may only be listened to by 14% of the people that play the C&C game.

I'd wager it is less than that, in fact. One reason I do not consider the internet an integral role in marketing Atomic Clock through such things as Twitter or whatever -- the audience will likely not even use these things, and of the ones that would, they are more likely to be reachable another way such as these (or my own) forums. Of course, to succeed at a level similar to TLG, if that were my goal, would mean an awful lot of convention traveling... so, thank goodness I have less lofty goals in mind.
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Wasgo · Post by **Wasgo** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:35 pm

Treebore wrote:
As for the reviewer, maybe I not being clear enough, in the thread in question he chimes in and blatantly says its his job to persuade the readers to see things his way and that apparently he needs to sharpen up his writing skills since he seems to be failing to do so.

That is not writing reviews, that is writing propaganda.

That's really no different than most reviewers. A reviewer only feels successful if people agree with her or his review. I don't really feel his review was any different in that respect. It was a poorly written review, and doesn't offer enough information about what's actually in the books, but I would still consider it a review.

Traveller wrote:
While I personally can distinguish the difference between what is needed (PHB, M&T) and what isn't (OGM, CKG), the average joe on the street who has never read this forum and possibly doesn't even bother with the Internet may not be able to tell the difference.

As I've stated before, I don't mind the term Core, as long as it's made explicit that the Player's Handbook and Monsters and Treasure are all that are needed to play the game. If people buy the system for the two book appeal, then decide to expand, the Core designation might help focus their subsequent purchases. With four books though, it's a lot harder to sell it as opposed to D&D which starts with three.

Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:06 pm

Omote wrote:
In a current C&C game I play with 7 people, 6 of them have zero interest in all of these internets rumblings. Think about that for a second. All of this clamouring may only be listened to by 14% of the people that play the C&C game. If that is the case, then most of the people who play C&C couldn't care less about this argument. Just a minor observation.

~O

I concur. There have been 11 different players at my table since C&C was first played at my house (not including me). Exactly ONE of them has visited the TLG site. None of them have ever visited RPG forums that were not World of Warcraft related.

In short, CK's hold all the power. As it should be.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:54 pm

Omote wrote:
In a current C&C game I play with 7 people, 6 of them have zero interest in all of these internets rumblings. Think about that for a second. All of this clamouring may only be listened to by 14% of the people that play the C&C game. If that is the case, then most of the people who play C&C couldn't care less about this argument. Just a minor observation.

~O

Internet forums are, at best, 10% of the customer base. That's a pretty consistent number across all the various game companies.
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:55 pm

Traveller wrote:
I'm not often critical of TLG but as mentioned in a prior post, the one about the C&C gift set, the labeling of the PHB, M&T, OGM, and the CKG as core is going to bite them in the ass. Really. That is the point where Julian felt C&C jumped the shark. While I personally can distinguish the difference between what is needed (PHB, M&T) and what isn't (OGM, CKG), the average joe on the street who has never read this forum and possibly doesn't even bother with the Internet may not be able to tell the difference. I have to admit though that I see where he's coming from. AD&D used to be a three book system (PHB, MM, DMG) but with the release of the DDG became a four book system. Subsequent monster volumes and Unearthed Arcana turned it into a seven book system. This happened because TSR never explicitly stated that these were optional books, and so every DM felt compelled to use them. Another example would be Classic Traveller, in that only Books 1-3 are actually required to play the game, but the game system eventually expanded to eight books, nine if you included Book 0: Introduction to Traveller. Because each LBB was labeled as "Book X", they were assumed to be core when in reality they should have been supplements.

If you have material that is not essential to the running of the game, label it as a supplement. It's deceptive to label it anything else, or to not label it at all.

What gift set are you talking about? The only set we have planned, and its not a gift set really, is the revised Deluxe Set which will replace Gary Gygax's Castle Zagyg with the CKG. The Deluxe set will not have Of Gods & Monsters in it. It won't fit, the box (already complete, and complete years ago actually), can only hold three books. Has there been some other announcement I've put out, I'm really not being sarcastic, sometimes I post my rambling thoughts, and may have mentioned it somewhere.

As for the core I've address this several times, the reference word has different meanings to consumers and retailers. As it stands right now, according to any retailer I've talked to C&C has 3 core books: PH, MT and CKG. Only hard core players make a large distinction. The CKG is filled with THIS IS OPTIONAL material all over it, and i tell retailers this all the time, but yet it is called a core book in retail emails and phone calls and conversations I have.

OG&M seems to have really scared some people into believing we are creating a new game system. We aren't. Our pitches are the same: you only need this one book....(the PH, not OG&M). I called it core in a few advertisements and in the article I wrote for Crusader. As I've explained, apparently quite poorly, I really have a different concept of what core is, than most long term gamers. I always considered the Unearthed Arcana a core book and promptly tossed most of it, I tossed pieces of the PH, DMG and even monster material. But even that aside the CKG is still called a core book, and even as Deities and Demigods became a core book to the retailer and those making the pitch to new markets so will OG&M. Its natural because its habitual.

What is core to me? Well its more than mechanics as mechanics don't drive my game (ask Mark, he'll tell you); role playing does. So core to me are those core books that give me solid expansion material for the game itself. In this case, we will have four books filled with useful material: PH, MT, CKG and OG&M. These are core books because they generate the attention and support the game the most; that is how I've always viewed them and the ad copy I write, and I write 99% of it, reflects that.

Does any of this make sense?

We've gone to great pains to tell gamers to toss what they don't want and keep what they do, so really nothing is core.

But what I'm trying to say is that it is almost irrelevant what we want. The CKG is a classic example as it has completely taken on a life of its own. To most people it is a product horribly late that is supposed to expand the game. To us here it is barely a month past due and is filled with optional rules. When the CKG comes out, despite it is optional rules and will be labeled so...that and CKing advice...it will still be considered core by those calling me on the phone and asking for it; i say this because that's what they ask for now. I suspect OG&M will be the same, though it doesn't have as much play as the CKG does, so I may be wrong on that.

For that book the introductory note I've put in the book will be strengthened to say IF you use the rules of gods and monsters, for game balance, you have to do this and this. So that should help a bit.

But where does all this leave the M&T of Aihrde!??

I'm really not being argumentative AK, you and I come from completely different perspectives on this.

All that said, the consumer pre-orders on the PH, 4th printing far surpassed the 2nd and 3rd printings pre-ordes. The pre-orders on the retail end do as well (this is direct). We have yet to see what they do in the general market as that will be about another week and some change before we get those numbers in.

Steve
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:59 pm

Omote wrote:
In a current C&C game I play with 7 people, 6 of them have zero interest in all of these internets rumblings. Think about that for a second. All of this clamouring may only be listened to by 14% of the people that play the C&C game. If that is the case, then most of the people who play C&C couldn't care less about this argument. Just a minor observation.

~O

The sad thing is that internet discussions do not seem to drive sales or hurt them. I can't find any real evidence that shows people read a thread and either buy or don't buy. The vast majority of gamers are still in the retail shops. The number sold, down from the d20 days, is still tremendously greater on the retail side of things. The M&T probably selling 20 to 1 in favor of retailers, and that doesn't include Amazon (though Gencon probably upset that number, but by december as restocks continue it will even back out).

Where internet discussions might have an impact is the REVENUE generated by direct sales as we get more bang for the buck from direct sales. At least up front, but the residual advantages decline quickly as retailers will keep restocking an item that keeps selling. Usually, not always, but usually a direct sale is a singular deal.

Now we hope to change this by fostering the C&C Society and making a more active online community. But even then we'll push folks to go to their local shops.

Steve
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:02 pm

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
I don't think I ever heard anybody at the Trolls' booth at this past GenCon telling people that they had to have OG&M to play the game. Now granted, I didn't spend all my time at the con hovering at the booth, but anytime I was in the main hall, I stopped by and chatted. The message as I understand it really hasn't changed. All you really need to play the game are the two books. Everything else, neat though it may be, is just gravy.

As the C&C Society is ramping up its activities, that's probably a message we need to think long and hard about as we're out plugging for the game. If that message has changed, I'd love to hear it, but I've never heard anybody say that, even though CKG and OG&M are being branded as core books, they're not required to play the game. But they're worthwhile things to have, as one gives CKs substantial advice on running games (EDIT: based on what we've seen so far, in the teasers that have shown up in The Crusader) , and the other gives CKs and players alike ideas for C&C faiths & pantheons, as well as how to format your own should you decide to use something other than what's in the "core" rulebook.

You are correct. The message hasn't changed. The pitch is the same, you only need this one book. Everything else is gravy.

Now I'm wanting some mashed potatoes! Curse yo Sir Osis haha

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com