So what's this I hear Jim Ward is killing TLG?

[Sir Ironside]

Wasgo wrote:
As a player, I can state that until I read the forums, I did find the whole 4 Core Books to be confusing. At first I thought they were expanding the number of 'standard' books from three to four. Especially since the new edition of the PHB came out after Of Gods and Monsters so the website was all I had to reference. As of now there is 1 required book to play, 2 books are necessary for most game purposes, 3 books will be in the standard box set and 4 books are Core. Given that I was confused, I refuse to debate whether or not this can be confusing.

Yep, I gotta say you are hearing it enough that to bury your head and say it isn't a problem as long as you read this forum... well someone here did say that less than 10% of online forums account for sales. That would mean only 10% is getting the message.

I was over checking out the D&D new website and I came across this...

D&D Core Essentials

Which refer to the PH, DMG and the MM, and nothing more. Maybe TLG could do something similar with the wording on this website.

Quote:
I like C&C. I own a few of the books, and more than a few of the PDFs. I hate making any sort of constructive criticism of C&C on this forum. I find certain people's responses, especially yours, to be dismissive and condescending. I can fully appreciate why many people wouldn't want to post any criticism on these forums. In fact, this will be my last post on this topic, as it's very clear there is no intention to have a merit-based discussion. The only purpose that I can see for this topic is to prove how much superior posters here are by slagging on RPG.net and the RPGNow reviewer about how biased and stupid they are.

I haven't really seen what you are talking about. For the most part this is a) a pretty closed forum and what I mean about that is there really isn't that much talk about other forums on here. b) When something does come up it usually is about how the thread could've missed the mark and why. It isn't until the other forums thread reels off into nothing more than spitting up bile does the mood change here. RPGnet has gone far beyond "The Zebra" and is now just into piling on. Nothing constructive is going on anymore, people are just eating popcorn and watching a train wreck.

I've done my share of criticism here and the response is either a post wanting me to explain more or a post about another point of view. I never really get talked down to, but about 50% of the time my negative post is ignored. I'm sorry you feel that way, from what I've experienced this forum is by far one of the friendliest I've ever been on.
_________________
That is SIR! to you!

[CharlieRock]

That's stupid. (the topic)

Jim ain't killing nothing and TLG ain't getting killed by nothing.

Period.

I ain't even looking up the original thread or review. It's just not worth my time.

And Jim knows I'm not his biggest fan. But I know what's what and what ain't what.

_________________
The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Sir Ironside wrote:
I haven't really seen what you are talking about. For the most part this is a) a pretty closed forum and what I mean about that is there really isn't that much talk about other forums on here. b) When something does come up it usually is about how the thread could've missed the mark and why. It isn't until the other forums thread reels off into nothing more than spitting up bile does the mood change here. RPGnet has gone far beyond "The Zebra" and is now just into piling on. Nothing constructive is going on anymore, people are just eating popcorn and watching a train wreck.

I've done my share of criticism here and the response is either a post wanting me to explain more or a post about another point of view. I never really get talked down to, but about 50% of the time my negative post is ignored. I'm sorry you feel that way, from what I've experienced this forum is by far one of the friendliest I've ever been on.

Again, harrumph. While I haven't been around here as long as many, I've been around enough to see what kind of posts get piled on for one reason or another. While some of my responses haven't been the most positive, I've tried hard to keep them constructive and to be respectful of the people who make the forum available to us. I think most of the other people I've met from these boards operate from a similar point of view. Maybe that's one of the things I enjoy in hanging out here. Civility can be a wonderful thing.

[tylermo]

Uugghh. I read the entire rpg.net thread last night. That's 30-45 minutes I won't get back. I own OG&M, and Tainted Lands. I haven't read either all the way through. I've looked over OG&M a great deal however. Have I seen some things that might be a bit over-powered for some of my games? Sure. That said, I've snagged a few of the gods for characters in my upcoming con games. OG&M might not be a "core" book for me, but a useful one. As for Tainted Lands, my greatest exposure was one of Jim's demo games at Troll Con. I was intrigued, and Jim's gm'ing style really made the game. A full read-through, and time will tell how TL stacks up for me. Haven't fully delved into all of the new illusionist spells, so I can't really comment on the "controversy" about illusionist healing spells? The rpgnet critic is entitled to his opinion, but I thought the whole "fire Jim" comment was a bit much. So far, I'm happy with what Mr. Ward has done during his time with TLG. No offense to TLG's wonderful products, but I was surprised to see at least 13 pages of discussion about the topic. To the entire TLG crew...keep up the good work!

[Sir Ironside]

tylermo wrote:
I've looked over OG&M a great deal however. Have I seen some things that might be a bit over-powered for some of my games? Sure. That said, I've snagged a few of the gods for characters in my upcoming con games.

I was going to mention this over at RPGnet, but it is so off the rails I didn't bother.

But, it is a book about GODS! Seriously? A book about gods is overpowered? I don't have it so maybe somebody could explain it to me.
_________________
That is SIR! to you!

[tylermo]

You make a good point. Who wants a wussy God. At a glance, I think I was refering to some of the special weapons. Then again, some of those would be better suited to other higher-leveled adventures down the road. Definately count me as a fan of the book.

If I might comment briefly on rpg.net...I usually frequent the site to read some of the new reviews. I've found most of the critics to be fair, and polite. I certainly don't let everything ride on a bad review however. As for the forum, they definately have their fair share of less-than-wonderful individuals. There are some okay folks, but plenty of the pompous variety.

[Philotomy Jurament]

I haven't read OG&M, but my understanding is that the criticisms about power (and being over-powered) aren't focused on the gods, but on powers and such granted to their clerics and followers.
_________________
http://www.philotomy.com
Lost City Campaign Log

[Geoffrey]

Two points:

1. Jim Ward didn't submit the illusionist healing spells. Mac Golden did: "Don't blame Jim if you don't like the new healing spells/idea for the illusionist. Jim wrote some great new spells for the illusionist. But, the inclusion of the healing and retooling of them mechanic wise for the illusionist were my initiative and submission." (link: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames )

2. Isn't getting up in arms about Jim's two new C&C products being over-powered kind of like getting up in arms over farmers planting crops? Jim was the original Monty Haul DM. It is Jim's style. He doesn't go in for carefully-balanced, low-powered stuff. He dials it way up. You'd think that wouldn't surprise anybody by now. Just read the accounts of Jim's refereeing Metamorphosis Alpha back in the mid-1970s. His penchant for the high-powered goes all the way back to his entrance into the field.

[Sir Ironside]

tylermo wrote:
You make a good point. Who wants a wussy God. At a glance, I think I was refering to some of the special weapons. Then again, some of those would be better suited to other higher-leveled adventures down the road. Definately count me as a fan of the book.

Still, it is a matter of what one is looking for I guess. I'm sure there is enough material for lower levels, I have been expecting a book called "Of Gods and Monsters" to give me high level goodness. I would've been a little disappointed if it was filled with lower level stuff.

Sounds like their is complaining for the sake of complaining or you've already made up your mind and just fit "proof" that your opinion is right retroactively.

Oh well this doesn't affect me at all, so I'll just let people have their nerd-rage fun unabated.
_________________
That is SIR! to you!

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Troll Lord wrote:
You are correct. The message hasn't changed. The pitch is the same, you only need this one book. Everything else is gravy.

Now I'm wanting some mashed potatoes! Curse yo Sir Osis haha

Steve

Hrmmm...I think that's the first time my words have made somebody hungry. Maybe my Jedi Mind Trick exercises are starting to work. Muwahahahahahahahaha!!!!

[James M. Ward]

First of all I'm amazed this post is still going on!

Once again I really appreciate the very kind words from my fans. I can tell that some of you get it.

There are just a couple of things I want to state for this record.

1: I purposely write at a 10 year old reading level. Milton Bradley, Hasbro, and Matell write at an 8 year old reading level. When some one says I'm writing at a 12 year old level, they are making a mistake and don't understand what they are saying.

2: I like high power games and learned how to play high power games from Gary Gygax who taught me everything I know about role-playing. If you don't like high power material, don't buy my products.

3: When I write a book about gods, shouldn't the reader expect high power artifacts? What god who wants to use a dagger, would use a +1 dagger if they could have an adamantine +5 one?

4: I worked with the fine people who created Ravenloft and highly respect that product. I would never rip off concepts from that wonderful game that I helped to create. My Tainted Lands uses movie horror concepts which are not in Ravenloft. I needed to say this last because my friends who were the editors and designers of Ravenloft need to know that I constantly thought of them and their work when I put together my horror project.

Thank you Steve for letting me write those two products.

James M. Ward

[Sundog]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* That is funny. Clerics start out at 2nd level, yet the chap says that the paragraph doesn't spell out any benefits.

Gamers on the internet: decreasing the signal to noise ratio since before BBS.

I knew there was a reason I didn't bother with RPGnet any more, and now I remember. I met a number of great folks from forum meet-ups, but the amount of sludge you have to wade through is prohibitive.

[Troll Lord]

Traveller wrote:
I quoted the whole thing, but the definition that applies to this discussion is 2a, which states "a basic, essential, or enduring part (as of an individual, a class, or an entity)". I do not know how you came up with your definition of "core" and I don't know where the book distributers came up with their definition, but the CKG and OGM are NOT core according to the accepted definition. They are neither basic nor are they essential to the play of the game. So why then are they marketed on the website as "core" material when they clearly are not?

Hmm, Now I'll be argumentative. 2a is not the definition that applies to this discussion, but building on my marketing metaphor in Crusader, about the game being a Castle being buttressed by the foundations of the four books I chose 1.

"1 : a central and often foundational part usually distinct from the enveloping part by a difference in nature "

So the definition of core as I use it works quite well actually. The difference in nature is not the material within, as most all of that is supplementary (Davis doesn't use the M&T, so that to him is a supplement).

The core, as you've defined it, is the Siege Engine.

Obviously Trav and I disagree on this rather subjective definition of core as my experiences and his differ. I can't tell you why retailers call the CKG a core book, they just do. I can hazard a guess, but I would have to footnote it with even those retailers who fully grasp the idea that only the PH is needed still call the CKG a core book.

I don't think TLG is being misleading or deceptive.....BUT read next post...

Steve
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Frost]

Troll Lord wrote:
I can't tell you why retailers call the CKG a core book, they just do. I can hazard a guess, but I would have to footnote it with even those retailers who fully grasp the idea that only the PH is needed still call the CKG a core book.

In my opinion, the whole problem with that term "core" goes back to the release of 3e D&D. I never heard the term used in regards to RPG rulebooks until WotC slapped it on the cover of the 3e PH, DMG, and MM. Their reason for doing so was to say, "you need these books to play." Once they did that, "core" became a loaded word in the RPG industry.

If TLG has been the first to use the term "core," it might have a different industry definition.

As for the retailer, I'm guessing its the same problem that many gamers have. It's simply hard for some folks to grasp the idea you don't need a game master guide to play a D&D-like RPG. The whole issue here is semantics. Hell, they might not be clamoring for a CKG if the C&C Players Handbook had just been called the "Castles & Crusades Rulebook." Actually, that would likely have avoided all this "core" business, too.
_________________
Lord Frost

Baron of the Pitt
Castles & Crusades Society
The Dungeoneering Dad

[Troll Lord]

Wasgo wrote:
As a player, I can state that until I read the forums, I did find the whole 4 Core Books to be confusing. At first I thought they were expanding the number of 'standard' books from three to four. Especially since the new edition of the PHB came out after Of Gods and Monsters so the website was all I had to reference. As of now there is 1 required book to play, 2 books are necessary for most game purposes, 3 books will be in the standard box set and 4 books are Core. Given that I was confused, I refuse to debate whether or not this can be confusing.

This is brilliantly put. Really. I'm not being sarcastic. It reminds me of a discussion about the sleep spell between Todd, Mark, Mac and myself. I mentioned to Mac the sleep spell was, as written, a little confusing. He said its just fine. Mark read it and agreed with me (a rare event), but Mac said, no it makes perfect sense. Todd read it and was confused again, Mac said, it makes perfect sense, your just reading it wrong. No Mac, 3 out of 4 users are confused! haha It was a hilarious discussion.

I've always said, "Its not what you say. Its what they hear."

So if I'm operating under a different definition of core, which I am and will continue to do so, then I have to make that clear. Which as casual consumer has pointed out (no offense Wasgo!), I have not done. And though it does imply the CKG is supplementary material it does not state anywhere that the ONLY BOOK YOU NEED IS THE PH.

I'll work on that this morning. The timing for this discussion could not be more perfect as I am announcing the PH tonight and best to have the ad copy cleared up before I do so. So I'll start clarifying this.

Though I'm going to shake this up a bit. Look for core material. C&C has shaken up the whole 3 book paradigm already, lets change the definitions while we are at it.

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Omote]

Troll Lord wrote:
Though I'm going to shake this up a bit. Look for core material. C&C has shaken up the whole 3 book paradigm already, lets change the definitions while we are at it.

Ooooooooh! More fuel for the FYE-UH. Look forward to the conversation.
~O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Treebore]

Troll Lord wrote:
This is brilliantly put. Really. I'm not being sarcastic. It reminds me of a discussion about the sleep spell between Todd, Mark, Mac and myself. I mentioned to Mac the sleep spell was, as written, a little confusing. He said its just fine. Mark read it and agreed with me (a rare event), but Mac said, no it makes perfect sense. Todd read it and was confused again, Mac said, it makes perfect sense, your just reading it wrong. No Mac, 3 out of 4 users are confused! haha It was a hilarious discussion.

I've always said, "Its not what you say. Its what they hear."

So if I'm operating under a different definition of core, which I am and will continue to do so, then I have to make that clear. Which as casual consumer has pointed out (no offense Wasgo!), I have not done. And though it does imply the CKG is supplementary material it does not state anywhere that the ONLY BOOK YOU NEED IS THE PH.

I'll work on that this morning. The timing for this discussion could not be more perfect as I am announcing the PH tonight and best to have the ad copy cleared up before I do so. So I'll start clarifying this.

Though I'm going to shake this up a bit. Look for core material. C&C has shaken up the whole 3 book paradigm already, lets change the definitions while we are at it.

Steve

Make sure to clear it up on your website. Somewhere give Y?OUR definition of "Core" to explain why you refer to the 4 books as core, then on the PH blurbs put in big bolded caps: THIS IS THE ONLY BOOK ESSENTIAL/CRITICAL TO PLAY C&C. Then under the M&T write up put something along the lines of: This book is HIGHLY recommended for a complete playing experience with C&C. Then under the other two put something along the lines of: This book is a helpful Core book (See TLG definition of core HERE), but is not essential to playing C&C.

That way everything will become clearer, and easier for us to explain and defend against the internet haters of C&C, so that more new people will be properly influenced, rather than believe the hate clubs.

Plus be sure to put this essential versus not essential in the forwards of each book, including your definition of core being explained.
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Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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[gideon_thorne]

Treebore wrote:
Make sure to clear it up on your website. Somewhere give Y?OUR definition of "Core" to explain why you refer to the 4 books as core, then on the PH blurbs put in big bolded caps: THIS IS THE ONLY BOOK ESSENTIAL/CRITICAL TO PLAY C&C. Then under the M&T write up put something along the lines of: This book is HIGHLY recommended for a complete playing experience with C&C. Then under the other two put something along the lines of: This book is a helpful Core book (See TLG definition of core HERE), but is not essential to playing C&C.

That way everything will become clearer, and easier for us to explain and defend against the internet haters of C&C, so that more new people will be properly influenced, rather than believe the hate clubs.

Plus be sure to put this essential versus not essential in the forwards of each book, including your definition of core being explained.

We're working on that very thing at this time.

As for the internet haters, some folks just can't be reached no matter what you do, or how hard you try.

Best to find people to play off internet forums.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Omote]

Treebore wrote:
Make sure to clear it up on your website. Somewhere give Y?OUR definition of "Core" to explain why you refer to the 4 books as core, then on the PH blurbs put in big bolded caps: THIS IS THE ONLY BOOK ESSENTIAL/CRITICAL TO PLAY C&C. Then under the M&T write up put something along the lines of: This book is HIGHLY recommended for a complete playing experience with C&C. Then under the other two put something along the lines of: This book is a helpful Core book (See TLG definition of core HERE), but is not essential to playing C&C.

That way everything will become clearer, and easier for us to explain and defend against the internet haters of C&C, so that more new people will be properly influenced, rather than believe the hate clubs.

Plus be sure to put this essential versus not essential in the forwards of each book, including your definition of core being explained.

I understand the reasoning on why you mention doing so, but for the love of Pete Bradley who in their right mind would want to change the introduction text, cover text, and all the website text to fit this? As discussed earlier, theoretically only 14% of the C&C players even invest time in this site, let alone a lesser percentage with discussions such as this one. TLG seemed pretty clear here in their reasonings, so why demand (or suggest) changing all of this text. Seems a waste of valuable time that can be used to produce the CKG, M&TA, etc.

~O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Troll Lord]

Just for those of you who don't know, Traveler has been a long time supporter of C&C, so we do value his opinion and appreciate his comments. But his opinions are subject to scrutiny as are everyone who is attempting to participate in the forward movement of the Crusade and has, as he definitely has, done so in the past.

But we are clarifying the language even now.

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[gideon_thorne]

Omote wrote:
I understand the reasoning on why you mention doing so, but for the love of Pete Bradley who in their right mind would want to change the introduction text, cover text, and all the website text to fit this? As discussed earlier, theoretically only 14% of the C&C players even invest time in this site, let alone a lesser percentage with discussions such as this one. TLG seemed pretty clear here in their reasoning, so why demand (or suggest) changing all of this text. Seems a waste of valuable time.

~O

_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Troll Lord]

Treebore wrote:
Plus be sure to put this essential versus not essential in the forwards of each book, including your definition of core being explained.

There is going to be a link to a page that explains what you need to play the game. This link will appear on all product pages. I just have to figure out where to put it so it is visible.

I don't think the word core appears in any of the books, anywhere. I know its not on the ad copy on the back of the Players Handbook. Its not a word I use very often and its usage in this context is new to me. But more to the point, it won't in the future.

Trust me. I'll get the website fixed so that it is clear. It is already clear on the PH as it says, on the back of the book, "all essential information needed to play a game of C&C is in this book." The use of the word core was not included in the context of core BOOKS. Have a quick gander at my introduction and you'll see what core means to me and the way C&C has used the word core from the beginning.

But I'll emphasize that on the website for interested parties, so they understand what the core books are, those books that emphasize the rules light approach to gaming and strangely enough the CKG does emphasize that approach to game, despite its rules and mechanics as it too constantly discusses how to role play through rules and not roll play with them.

But again, this language has nuance that is not being imparted on the website (though it is clear in the published books I think), and I'll fix it on the website.

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Treebore]

Why do this? Its simply good business. If your sales are currently 3,000 sales and you can do something as simple as this to increase them to 3,300, do you do it?

If your sales are 10,000 and doing this could increase sales to 11,000, do you do it?

Yes, unless you don't like maximizing your business' potential.

As for the internet haters, I could care less about them. What I care about is the ones looking for an RPG who can be wrongly influenced by the haters, so the better ammunition TLG gives us to fight the lies and convoluted arguments of those haters, the more likely we are to help people to see the truth for themselves.

That si why this all should be done.

Its simply good business.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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[gideon_thorne]

Its funny, back in July, when this same discussion occurred under the topic "C&C is not AD&D" did I not say that these discussions come back around every 3-4 months? Man, I must be psychic?
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Its funny, back in July, when this same discussion occurred under the topic "C&C is not AD&D" did I not say that these discussions come back around every 3-4 months? Man, I must be psychic?

No, just a good student of human behaviour.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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[Omote]

All this is, is conforming to what a few internet personalities think should be done. If they can do better, they should open up their own RPG company and do it themselves. All of this rhetoric sometimes leads to the dissolution of what was otherwise a great idea and unique in personality. All these internet personalities do is water down the product and make them conform to what they think is standard. Damn to hell the products that caused this sense of what something should be and what it should not.

~O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Troll Lord]

Treebore wrote:
Why do this? Its simply good business. If your sales are currently 3,000 sales and you can do something as simple as this to increase them to 3,300, do you do it?

If your sales are 10,000 and doing this could increase sales to 11,000, do you do it?

Yes, unless you don't like maximizing your business' potential.

As for the internet haters, I could care less about them. What I care about is the ones looking for an RPG who can be wrongly influenced by the haters, so the better ammunition TLG gives us to fight the lies and convoluted arguments of those haters, the more likely we are to help people to see the truth for themselves.

That si why this all should be done.

Its simply good business.

Your right. Dead on. We have to grow this game or it won't continue to be viable. Grow or die, folks; grow or die.

Language is important in this. This trick is to find the language that best describes this group of books...the four hardbacks. Keeping in mind that these four will be added to over time with the M&T of Aihrde, the M&T 2, and the Adventurer's Backpack. These are grouped differently because of price and format. They will be the green ones.

Right now I"m working off the idea of Siege Gear. I've always liked the concept to cover books like Engineering Dungeons. Now I'm working with the Crusade/Castle metaphor established in the Crusader mag to explain the four hard back books. I like the imagery of the PH as the Keep and each book its own tower. That is where the word core entered my ad copy as these "towers" and the "keep" are the core of the castle that is the source of the Crusade.

Its hard to describe a metaphor in advertising unless you have moving pictures, something we do not have. But metaphors are great advertisements, engaging the viewer so to speak.

Thoughts?

Steve
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Frost]

Troll Lord wrote:
The difference in nature is not the material within, as most all of that is supplementary (Davis doesn't use the M&T, so that to him is a supplement).

Ok, this may sound like a dumb question, but how does one play C&C without M & T? I've heard that said many times, but I don't understand that. For example, if I own no other RPG books and only have the C&C PH, where am I going to get my monsters? Sure, you can make your own monsters but the details on how to do so are in M&T.
_________________
Lord Frost

Baron of the Pitt
Castles & Crusades Society
The Dungeoneering Dad

[Frost]

Troll Lord wrote:
Right now I"m working off the idea of Siege Gear. I've always liked the concept to cover books like Engineering Dungeons. Now I'm working with the Crusade/Castle metaphor established in the Crusader mag to explain the four hard back books. I like the imagery of the PH as the Keep and each book its own tower. That is where the word core entered my ad copy as these "towers" and the "keep" are the core of the castle that is the source of the Crusade.

Its hard to describe a metaphor in advertising unless you have moving pictures, something we do not have. But metaphors are great advertisements, engaging the viewer so to speak.

Thoughts?

Steve

Here is a thought, on the Product page (http://www.trolllord.com/cnc/index.html), change the "Core Books" header to Rule Books. And then simply use "core" only in relation to the Players Handbook. IN other words, C&C has 4 "rule books" (PH, M&T, CKG, OGM&M) and the rest are supplements and modules.
_________________
Lord Frost

Baron of the Pitt
Castles & Crusades Society
The Dungeoneering Dad

[Treebore]

Frost wrote:
Ok, this may sound like a dumb question, but how does one play C&C without M & T? I've heard that said many times, but I don't understand that. For example, if I own no other RPG books and only have the C&C PH, where am I going to get my monsters? Sure, you can make your own monsters but the details on how to do so are in M&T.

Your "monsters" can start out being NPC's. At high levels my "monsters" are NPC's more often then not simply because that is the best way to challenge hi level PC's, and the variety of high level monsters simply is not that great.

But yes, if you want "monsters", you need the M&T or some other monster book that your confident about doing conversions from. I would recommend 1E or 2E MM's. Even though I have done plenty from 3E and even a few from 4E now.
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