Giving players more crunch, without it impacting the CK?

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:40 pm

I've had more than one player complain that CnC wasn't "enough" for them. Or as one guy put it, 3.0's feats and PrCs gave him a way to play the game away from the table. Which would be fine if he didn't bring all of that "play" back to my table.

I wish there was a way to give these players all that crunch without it impacting my side of the GM screen.

Maybe if we put bonuses in tenths of a decimal place?

DerGolem · Post by **DerGolem** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:46 pm

Make them develop their characters' personalities over their stats. A classic solution is to have each player keep a journal of what their characters are doing in between sessions. Sure, it's fluff, not crunch, but it doesn't wreck your game with rules bloat.

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:59 pm

Agreed, but there's a reason these guys want the crunch. LOL!

I'd have to give them +1 bonus for every sentence I write. ... A paragraph would be too much work.

Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:04 pm

anglefish wrote:
Agreed, but there's a reason these guys want the crunch. LOL!

I'd have to give them +1 bonus for every sentence I write. ... A paragraph would be too much work.

If they want more crunch, buy them a box of the Cap'n!!
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:24 pm

Haha, Deo.

This was/is a large problem with my group. For many of the players, there wasn't enough crunch to manipulate and track and they just never came over to the C&C game. For others, it took a long time and I had to entice them with 3E-like mechanics and crunch. Somewhere along the line I liked the idea of a melded version of C&C and 3E. For the players, this seemed to give them some crunchy bits to hold tight too. For others is still wasn't enough. Oh well, what can you do.

Even after all of that melding, I still think there is very little chance of adding a bunch of crunch that won't impact the CORE C&C experience. For my part, I think I got as close as I can think of, but it's stiill a bit crunchy for C&C IMO.

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anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:57 pm

It's one of the reasons why 3.0 is/was popular. It make players feel empowered and gives them stuff to fiddle with.

It makes me wonder why the HERO system isn't more popular. Almost all of the HERO fans I know spend as much time making PC as playing.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:21 pm

OK. Let them pick 2-3 things they want to be able to do that is not currently in the C&C rules, such as some class power of a Prestige Class or a feat. They get that ability, in C&C terms, but are immediately considered class-and-a-half for it; every 4th level, they may select one more non-C&C ability, through the theory of adjuncts as previewed in the Crusader and in the forthcoming CKG. You, as Castle Keeper, may veto any choice. If the character is a spellcaster, they may, instead, opt for a spell that is not in C&C and have access to it, such as true strike, but again, resolved in C&C terms.

Any time you allow the players anything, from additional ammunition to new spells, there is a heavier burden on the Castle Keeper... that is why it is incumbent on the Castle Keeper to weigh what is being done with what they can manage and still keep things fun. Some can go wahoo and dump anything and everything into a game... and others need a more controlled grip. Decide which you are, first.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:26 pm

Deogolf wrote:
If they want more crunch, buy them a box of the Cap'n!!

Get outta my head!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:43 pm

That mentality is exactly why I have the house rules I do. If they want crunch they get it. They plow through their books looking for cool "feats" they want to try and do and then make a roll when the opportunity comes up.

Plus they see how much they slow the game down with their extra rolls, and eventually decide they want things to move faster, so they roll less.

So eventually they see how all the extra fiddly bits slow the game down, so only try them in moderation. It takes months, but it worked for me.

Still, I have players who have permanently earned "special powers", like the wizard who can cast spells in chain mail or less, the Paladin who can attack twice per round at 9th level, the Illusionist who can split his wand of polymorphing ray between two targets without a check, etc... I have another wizard working his way towards maximum damage fireballs.

Yeah, they are more powerful than the norm, but unlike in 3E, or any other game for that matter, they earned it through game play.

Right now I require 25 successes to earn it, but I am thinking of lowering that to 20.

So yeah, give them their crunch, but make them earn it.
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CKDad · Post by **CKDad** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:51 pm

Some people just want this kind of thing in their game. Sometimes, they can be brought to a point where they appreciate both crunchy and more streamlined systems, but sometimes not. These kinds of folks aren't going to find developing their characters' personalities over their stats appealing.

I'll make another pitch for a great read, "Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering", available in PDF from Steve Jackson Games' Warehouse 23. One of the key theses of that book is that there's several different types of gamers, and some are just flat out going to prefer more crunch.
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DerGolem · Post by **DerGolem** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:11 pm

Treebore wrote:
That mentality is exactly why I have the house rules I do. If they want crunch they get it. They plow through their books looking for cool "feats" they want to try and do and then make a roll when the opportunity comes up.

I've just started playing with Treebore as CK and I already see how well this works. When the situation is right, players use judiciously modified siege checks to perform metamagic feats, special attacks and anything else the player can imagine. After a couple of sessions, I already feel my cleric has access to a more varied and detailed arsenal of called shots and spell-bending powers than the most intricate d20 character. All that's missing is ridiculous names for powers and hundreds of dollars worth of sourcebooks.

That said, Treebore makes the "roll a SIEGE check to see if you can do it" method look easier than it must be. Simulating careful game design on an ad hoc basis takes prudence, although it does avoid unnecessary preparation.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:13 pm

You know what I used to do when I wanted to play the game "away from the table"? Drew out my character's house on grid paper. Then when I got done with that I drew out what the surrounding area looked like. Whether it was a woodline or city. Then I started statting out things to fill up that area, like what the farms produced or what the tavern keeper's stats were. After I got done with that .... heh, I had actually contributed to the game. Besides concentrating on just one character who seemed to just step out of the air I had colored in a section of my world for everyone to see and use for themselves. Seems less selfish to me. YMMV
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:16 pm

Mark is always wanting his monk characters to do a little more, to have different abilities, expanded or what have you. He won't admit it, especially to me , but he wants more skills in the game so he can customize his character.

Over the years we've developed a very easy system of doing this. It adds a little to the preparation phase, but not much. Like in Treebore's game, let them pick a skill/feat/ability, swap it out with something. I can't remember now what Mark wanted on his latest character, but it had something to do with water breathing/holding breath. We worked it up swapped out some monk ability he role played it into the character and the whole worked well.

You can do this as an earned thing with experience points/weapon restrictions etc etc.

Steve
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anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:37 pm

Excellent ideas. Though I fear in truth it might never be enough for some players. If an encounter gives them still competition, they're on the lookout for the next edge they "need."

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:45 pm

anglefish wrote:
Excellent ideas. Though I fear in truth it might never be enough for some players. If an encounter gives them still competition, they're on the lookout for the next edge they "need."

Oh yeah. And that is actually the source of my desire to use less rules as every time the player has a quantifiable rule in front of him they can use it to guide the story/encounter. This is good 95% of the time as it allows for participation. But when the CK really needs to move the game in one direction or the other he can't do it without argument because of that rule. Mark exploded the other day when he found out I sometimes make a spot check a charisma check or intelligence check; it depends on the situation. He couldn't understand it because he can't build his character to meet specific situations.

Its really the greatest strength of the game and its greatest weakness.

Steve
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anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:52 pm

Well, to tell the truth I get double dipped in my game on CnC Strength/Weakness thing.

One is Mr. "Tailor My PC For Every Eventuality" ...

The other is the AD&D Expert AND the 3.X expert who both say, "Argh. Why is it whenever I assume CnC does it the 'right' way, they do it another way." LOL!

No one complains about their SIEGE checks, though. Especially when we don't have a Ranger in the party and I let them use their class levels for the roll.

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:53 pm

I do several things:

One, I've developed a series of "adjuncts" as I go - I tailor these to the specific player and his/her character. I tend to be BTB in early levels, then more expansive once they reach 6th level or so. Usually like an extra attack, a spell at will power, or something else that might be adapted or similar to some of the d20 feats.

I also do a "permanent" SIEGE check tool - if a player wants something to be part of their character "repertoire," I let them 1st do regular checks, then after an appropriate time they can "just do it inately." Example - wizard wanted to have to wands of magic missiles in belt holsters like six-guns, be able to pull and shoot double-barrelled magic missiles like an arcane gunslinger. I made him make dexterity checks at, first, rather difficult challenge levels, once made I lessened the CL, then eventually he good just do it.

I also allow them to seek out "training" in certain environs for character additives.

Ultimately, I also find when they keep going "I want more," that a simple "you do realize you are now the highest powered X in the vicinity? There is no one to make you better, in fact young adventurers are now coming to YOU to train, make magic items, etc."

Finally I encourage them to do the individualization thing - right now they've reached such power that they are building redoubts, and one player is spending a TON of energy writing out his codes and designing a castle for his "Order of the Jendai," he's a paladin who's studied the "Power of the Mind" in my setting and is working to establish a Jedi-like order to oppose the Sythgar (yeah, heavy SW influences in Ilshara).

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:57 pm

I do it in a similar manner to John. Low levels are fairly straightforward btb.

As they advance in level, they generally get some extras. There's no hard fast way laid outin my games for it. Depends on circumstance and what makes sense for that given character and how the game develops.

HOw it goes down for one character in one campaign doesn't neccesarily mean it will go the same for different character in a different campaign.

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:59 pm

anglefish wrote:
Well, to tell the truth I get double dipped in my game on CnC Strength/Weakness thing.

One is Mr. "Tailor My PC For Every Eventuality" ...

The other is the AD&D Expert AND the 3.X expert who both say, "Argh. Why is it whenever I assume CnC does it the 'right' way, they do it another way." LOL!

No one complains about their SIEGE checks, though. Especially when we don't have a Ranger in the party and I let them use their class levels for the roll.

LOLOL Yeppers.

The best yet is Mark so tailored his monk that he made it weaker at one point. He didn't realize it for awhile until Mac pointed it out. It was really funny. I didn't realize it at all of course cause I can't add.

Steve
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seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:02 pm

The player doing a monk in my campaign has A LOT of buffs - Ring of Evasion, Cloak of Displacement, Belt of Giant Strength, etc. - he is tough, tough, tough and wants to be invincible....

Then I threw the party at a Lich and later a Black Dragon last week. He failed CHA checks and sat cowering in the corner in abject terror during the entire lich battle.

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Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:19 pm

I put my players into situations that test their mettle as players, not their ability to min/max characters together. I'm not a fan of metagaming.

For me, I'll test them to see how wisely they chose their equipment during character creation, as well as maintaining the list through further levels.

I also experimented with some of the things Jim put into Towers in terms of treasure. In a recent adventure, they found a trunk/chest that had been trapped with a fireball spell. As long as they had the right key, they could open it safely and see the orb of energy hovering inside the lid (which, from the outside, was warm to the touch...the "spot" check while looking for traps). Instead of leaving it, they took it with them and strapped it to one of the horses (the one that belonged to the thief who was "stoned" when she tried putting on the cloak of cockatrice feathers ). Then, conveniently enough, they ran into a planned encounter that put them up against plant-type monsters that were way more powerful in numbers than the party could have possibly dealt with. Solution? Jimmy the lock, tie a rope to the lid (opening away from the party's defensive position) and KA-BOOM!!! If this leads to anything, it would be something along the lines of a "Use Magic Device" ability that specializes in traps. The characters can recognize it better and can either disable or use the stuff.

Bottom line, I totally base my rewards in terms of abilities on how the PLAYERS RP their way through the scenario. Like John and the others in the thread, they have to earn whatever they get. I like the idea of the XP costs for the abilities that Gary put into the Yggsburgh addendum that used to be available online.