For Shame TLG!

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:05 am

Sigh...

I used to have the love

I still wanted to share the love

but I can't any longer.. I simply can't.

The straw that broke this camel's back is the tournament module "The Lure of Delusion"

Won't even go into the obvious editing and spelling issues, we've all been there and done that.. its the more obvious stuff.

- minor stuff, like the Encounter charts which clearly indicate that its for Shades of Mist and include areas that have no bearing on the map for this module

- in the preamble before the introduction there is mention of pre-generated characters at the end of this book, sorry, none here

- but the killer for me, is nowhere is it mentioned that this is for 2nd edition C&C (call it what you want - a spade IS A spade), and 1 encounter in particular is totally unplayable without the 2nd edition PHB. The Encounter with Ryanna Chris - multi-class - what is that? and the spell selection for her does not match up to any spells in the 1st-3rd prints of the phb.

again, I sigh...

so, instead of having a module that I can play AS IS at a convention in 8 days in Hamilton Ontario, now I have to retrofit it, try and figure out how to make this encounter equal with the 1st edition Illusionist spells and a single-classing game.

furthermore, I can no longer pimp the game because I now am not "current" with the game...

I'm really, really frustrated - frustrated that I paid money for this module, not knowing this was for 2nd edition, and nowhere does it mention that its for 2nd edition.

frustrated that already, there is fragmentation going on with the game (the have's and have-not's)..... Frustrated, that I cannot get this updated material in time to play this module - because... well there is no good or valid reason why... simply - buy the new edition...

I'm pretty sure this is it for me... sad really.

J.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:15 am

Your only not current if you like the new Barbarian, the Monk is still current, they only changed names, and the Illusionist spells are just spells. So you simply do not have them in your games.

As for the module, yeah, your right, that sucks. I wonder how they made those mistakes.

As for multi classing, use your house rules, my house rules, or simply make them a single class.

You can do what I do, buy Paizo and Goodman DCC's, or the other old school modules, their editing has been good.

I also buy TLG modules, but I also expect to have to fix things.
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jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:35 am

Treebore.

Sure, I expect to modify things - that's fine, and expected. and in fact, I'll be playing this mod tomorrow to test it out and make sure it runs smooth. and making changes to the FLOW of the game based on that experience.

but unlink (I suspect) most who play C&C, I don't have or own previous editions of D&D - so I have no frame of reference for spells or multi-classing

I also don't have multi-class house rules - I play it by the book. and I have no idea if the Multi-class rules in this module is anything like those rules found in CZ:Y, or in the Crusader editions. Again, no frame of reference - and frankly, this are IMO "optional" rules and should NOT be in a sanctioned module.

but the spells for the Illusionis

What is:

Dragon mark

First Aid

Dragon Armour

Dragon Image

Faerie's Glamour

head fog

Illusionay Hounds

Dragons bite

Wards temporary invisibility

Displaced Image

Dragon Mount

Or better yet... lets take the spells that this important NPC has that IS found in the 1st edition (1-3 prints) PHB

- Ghost sound

- light

- message

- misdirection

So, your advice to me is this:

get an older edition of Dungeons and Dragons

get someone's posted house rules

or make up spells

in order to play THE ONLY official sanctioned Troll Lord Games Tournament Module to actually make this work..

That is unacceptable.

Cheers,

J.

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:45 am

The need for the "official" PDF transition document, the changes to be available, was discussed awhile back...

Unfortunately that is one of the many things that probably has gotten lost in the turmoil surrounding printing issues, CKG, et all that is discussed on the other thread (the CKG poll thread)...

But it IS something that needs to be addressed - the changes are not massive, so it's not a "new edition," but they are substantial enough to need this sort of customer service. It was something Steve agreed was going to happen, but like so much has gotten lost and forgotten with the singular focus.... this is EXACTLY the reason TLG has to get the CKG monkey off it's back and get in the clear so Steve, who is essentially the only one who has to personally handle all these details, can breathe and have space to deal with these sorts of things.

As for some of the mistakes, I'll take partial blame because I was pushing for the new adventure and asking Steve for changes to it going into GenCon with the usual maelstrom of things surrounding that.... the PreGens I have as they were prepared for the tournament, and will try and host them on the C&C Society squire's corner soon.

As for the 4th printing changes, yes indeed - a PDF, at the least very inexpensively, needs to be made available.

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:49 am

jman5000 wrote:
So, your advice to me is this:

get an older edition of Dungeons and Dragons

get someone's posted house rules

or make up spells

You don't have to do any of those things. Simply swap out the unknown spells for other illusionist spells in your PHB. Viola.

And, First Aid has been in the PHB since the 1st print. Maybe not on the Illusionist list, but you have the spell description.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:52 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
You don't have to do any of those things. Simply swap out the unknown spells for other illusionist spells in your PHB. Viola.

And, First Aid has been in the PHB since the 1st print. Maybe not on the Illusionist list, but you have the spell description.

Yep, and forget about multi classing entirely and just make them a single class.
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jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:55 am

OK,

Fair enough.

What 1st level Illusionist spell do I swap out for

Dragon Armour

from the sounds of it, seems like its a defensive spell - just guessing here.

so, Erase? Undetectable Aura? Which of the 1st edition illusionist spells will make this encounter "close enough" in toughness, abilities and magical wonder?

I'm being argumentative here on purpose, but the simple matter is this, I should not have to do this. Why must I buy an official game from the publisher and have to retrofit the shit out of it?

its like buying lego pieces that don't fit together, and being told to just drill new holes wherever you want them. if I wanted to retrofit a module, id have bought a non TLG one. at least then, I'd expect to do this...

Cheers,

J.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:02 am

Treebore wrote:
Yep, and forget about multi classing entirely and just make them a single class.

OK, so here is the encounter snipped...

"Her goal is to make certain the goblins have enough time to move forward and attack the party from the rear and flanks..... she waits only 2 rounds, assuming her crew is in place. Then without further warning she casts dragon bite at the strongest party member"

important NPC (this is a multi-class 2nd level fighter 5th level illusionist... HP's 18, AC 17, ... +1 chain shirt +3 bastard sword elf slayer, spells (listed above)

She does not fight to the death... she'll flee into the forest, she'll save her dragon mount spell to help her escape

I have taken out most of the colour text about this encounter - that can be roll played OK.

but this combat encounter. how can you build something by the book to be an equal challenge - offensively, defensively and with the same ability to escape?

I'm at a loss.

Cheers,

J.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:10 am

I would agree with you, jman, and that is a rare thing. The tournament module should not have used, as of then, unpublished material. It did, apparently. This just means the effort to get the "irrata update" is increased in desperation and hopefully made available soon.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:18 am

Treebore wrote:
Yep, and forget about multi classing entirely and just make them a single class.

See, I still don't get the need for MC rules or to drop a class to make it work.

I don't use any MC rules, or even carry over rules from D&D. But, when I encounter a MC character in a module it does absolutely nothing to hinder my playing. Its simply an NPC that can use skills from both. I truly don't understand the hang ups people have in that area.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:20 am

serleran wrote:
I would agree with you, jman, and that is a rare thing. The tournament module should not have used, as of then, unpublished material. It did, apparently. This just means the effort to get the "irrata update" is increased in desperation and hopefully made available soon.

Actually dude, the material was published, it was just published in softback.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:22 am

jman5000 wrote:
OK,

Fair enough.

What 1st level Illusionist spell do I swap out for

Dragon Armour

Whatever spell you want. Just like any other encounter. I almost never use MU's spells as listed in any module. I pick their spells based on my party.

As for building an "equal encounter".

Don't.

Build an encounter for enjoyment.

I don't find the usage of the new stuff to be that big of a deal, this was designed to be a module for GenCon, and I'm assuming to showcase sme of the new stuff that they were pimping there.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:23 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
See, I still don't get the need for MC rules or to drop a class to make it work.

I don't use any MC rules, or even carry over rules from D&D. But, when I encounter a MC character in a module it does absolutely nothing to hinder my playing. Its simply an NPC that can use skills from both. I truly don't understand the hang ups people have in that area.

its simple Danger Dwarf.

I'm playing this at a convention, in 2 back-to-back time slots

I'm playing this module with I would guess 95% of the players who has never ever played C&C before

I'm trying to pimp the game to everyone and let them know how awesome it is

I want to be able to show them after the game the module (time willing) and let them see all the parts behind the curtain as it were

show them the NPC's and monsters

the stats

the spells

the tricks of the game (attribute checks etc) that make the game flow and go really fast vs. their 3rd or 4th edition D&D mind-set

how can I do that, when I'm given an "official" module which the 4phb's I own don't support the content inside it.

What do you think those potential new players will think when I tell them that these official modules always contain mis-applied rules, or new rules or new monsters that are not statted out etc etc etc?

home game as part of a campaign - sure, this is not a problem at all

but this is a tourney module, that I am intendending to showcase C&C to ~ 18 people who has never played C&C before.

I think that is a big deal

Cheers,

J.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:26 am

Ok... the Multiclassing used here was called 'Class-and-a-Half' Multiclassing.

This Illusionist can cast spells while wearing armor but the target of the spell is granted a bonus to the save equal to the base AC value of the armor.

The character gets the best 'to-hit' bonus of the two classes.

Saving throws are made at level 5 and skill/siege checks according to the relevant class.

That should give you the info you need to run this NPC.

Now the 'Dragon Mount' is basically an illusionary dragon. It 'can carry 4 creatures; fly, swim, or walk 60 ft. movement'. Duration is 1 turn per level.

I'll be happy to answer other questions to help out....

You mentioned Dragon Armor earlier?

It grants a +1 AC bonus and grants the illusion of a set of plate armor on the target. move and sound like they are wearing plate with none of the encumbering effects. Lasts 1 turn / level

M
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:27 am

Quote:
Actually dude, the material was published, it was just published in softback.

Available in extremely limited supplies (since it was only a Troll Con release, and possibly at GenCon) and only to those who knew of it (which would not, unfortunately for all involved, be every possible TLG customer.) That does not equal "published" in the sense that either of us should expect to be using... but, if you want to revolve around a technical semantic term, then OK... it was "published," but not really universally available. Neither point diminishes the need for the "irrata update." In fact, both encourage it.

At least the new PHB is more readily available now. So, that does make things easier.
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jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:35 am

[quote="moriarty777"]Ok... the Multiclassing used here was called 'Class-and-a-Half' Multiclassing.

This Illusionist can cast spells while wearing armor but the target of the spell is granted a bonus to the save equal to the base AC value of the armor.

The character gets the best 'to-hit' bonus of the two classes.

Saving throws are made at level 5 and skill/siege checks according to the relevant class.

That should give you the info you need to run this NPC.

Now the 'Dragon Mount' is basically an illusionary dragon. It 'can carry 4 creatures; fly, swim, or walk 60 ft. movement'. Duration is 1 turn per level.

I'll be happy to answer other questions to help out....

You mentioned Dragon Armor earlier?

It grants a +1 AC bonus and grants the illusion of a set of plate armor on the target. move and sound like they are wearing plate with none of the encumbering effects. Lasts 1 turn / level

M[/quote]

Thanks for the details.

if you could help with the following spells, that would be great

Dragon mark

First Aid

Dragon Armour

Dragon Image

Faerie's Glamour

head fog

Illusionay Hounds

Dragons bite

Wards temporary invisibility

Displaced Image

Dragon Mount

duration, casting time, effect (if any), saves (if any) etc etc etc...

sorry to be a pain.

Cheers,

J.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:35 am

Actually, from a customer's standpoint, things are quite black and white.

This new module clearly needs a minimum of the 4th printing to play that tournament module *as designed*. There is nothing in or on the module that spells out this requirement.

This is a problem -- pure and simple.

M
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seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:39 am

jman..

to put a little perspective on this - this mod was specifically "official" for the GenCon tourney, and as such was written specifically for the desire to showcase the new stuff as part of the new printings there....

I can say that I am also partly responsible for the encounter you are most upset with - it actually wasn't in the original adventure as Steve wrote it, under the gun while trying to both get everything set for GenCon with me and Piper hollaring "where's the mod?" - I felt, when Steve sent it to me, that it might play short and asked if he could add some combat encounters.... the Ryanna character was one of these, added by Steve overnight to get it back to me in time to play test for both me and Eric Piper.... and I can truly say none of us were thinking about this beyond getting the Tourney run and done - I was slaving on the pt system for the tourney and the pre-gens, etc.

Does that sound short-sighted in dealing with material? Probably, but again - those sorts of considerations sometimes get lost - I ran it several times in manuscript form, read it constantly, and still missed some errors and typos that I spotted immediately when I got the "printed" copy (the contradictory name of the town Sherriff in the beginning - never saw it).

So, again the context - it was meant to be the 1st "official tourney mod FOR GenCon 2009" and the printed mod meant to be a sharing of this, but it didn't occur to any of us, I think, that it would be assumed to be picked up as "the official mod" for other tourneys necessarily - it should have, but as I said, we were focused only on that exhausting several days in Indy.... all I can say is, ask and you shall receive help from a number of us if you need it.

As I said, I agree completely that a transition document of some of the printing changes needs to be provided. jman's complaint that C&C promised only ONE edition, so that those who don't want to buy later printings shouldn't have to is a valid one. Many of us will buy all of them, but it is legit to not want to as loyal customer.

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:46 am

jman5000 wrote:
how can I do that, when I'm given an "official" module which the 4phb's I own don't support the content inside it.

Choose a different module, there's a buttload of them out there.

For $5, (3.50 if you PDF'd it), problems or not, its a hell of a deal. If you set up for that module at a convention prior to looking at the module, well cant really fault the module fer that.

Does the irrata need updated? Hell yeah it does. Do I think the existence of this module constitutes a blight on TLG? Nah, hardly.

seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:49 am

Here's one part of the missing puzzle:

The official GenCon Pre-Gen document is available here:
http://www.cncsociety.org/netbooks.html
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:50 am

seskis281 wrote:
So, again the context - it was meant to be the 1st "official tourney mod FOR GenCon 2009" and the printed mod meant to be a sharing of this, but it didn't occur to any of us, I think, that it would be assumed to be picked up as "the official mod" for other tourneys necessarily - it should have, but as I said, we were focused only on that exhausting several days in Indy....

Yeah, thats what I always assumed it was. Was glad to see it printed because I didn't think I'd get a chance to lay eyes o it otherwise.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:59 am

Cool, the characters.

Thanks a bunch!!!

Why is it that I seem to be the "Freak" here when all I want is

a) a complete module - with the parts in it that it says it should have

b) that I don't have to look all over hells green acre's to find bits and pieces to "complete" said module

c) can play an official release using all supported products (players handbooks)

d) that I'm not told that a "fix" is to rip it apart, buy something new, or change the hell out of it

e) or to play something different (insert rote default reply of A0 or A1 or shadows of the halfling hall) - in which anyone who has played these modules (and I have, all of them) knows full well they cannot be played in a single 4 hour time slot

f) being told "If you set up for that module at a convention prior to looking at the module, well cant really fault the module fer that." as if its MY fault TLG releases BROKEN product.

the whole point here is in 9 days I will / was going to run this module, because its the ONLY tournament module designed by TLG for C&C... (gencon or not! - WTF is that excuse anyway? why should that matter? if that was only supposed to be for gencon, then WhyTF is it for SALE?) Sadly this module is BROKEN for anyone who does not shell out yet another 20 bucks for yet another printing of a now incompatable players handbook (to mine)

J

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:04 am

1. I don''t consider you a freak.

2. The module isn't "broken".

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:08 am

I agree with you on the module, more should have been done to "fix it" before being made available for general sale. Now if you bought this at Gen Con, where the 4th printing books were also available, not so much.

Now if you bought it direct, from TLG, like I think you did, they should have made it clear that it needed the 4th printing to be fully utilized. They should have also cleaned it up.
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:12 am

jman5000 wrote:
Cool, the characters.

Thanks a bunch!!!

Why is it that I seem to be the "Freak" here when all I want is

a) a complete module - with the parts in it that it says it should have

b) that I don't have to look all over hells green acre's to find bits and pieces to "complete" said module

c) can play an official release using all supported products (players handbooks)

d) that I'm not told that a "fix" is to rip it apart, buy something new, or change the hell out of it

e) or to play something different (insert rote default reply of A0 or A1 or shadows of the halfling hall) - in which anyone who has played these modules (and I have, all of them) knows full well they cannot be played in a single 4 hour time slot

f) being told "If you set up for that module at a convention prior to looking at the module, well cant really fault the module fer that." as if its MY fault TLG releases BROKEN product.

the whole point here is in 9 days I will / was going to run this module, because its the ONLY tournament module designed by TLG for C&C... (gencon or not! - WTF is that excuse anyway? why should that matter? if that was only supposed to be for gencon, then WhyTF is it for SALE?) Sadly this module is BROKEN for anyone who does not shell out yet another 20 bucks for yet another printing of a now incompatable players handbook (to mine)

J

If it means anything I totally agree with you. I think that putting something as little as (C&C 4e Players Hanbook compatible) or something similar to distinguish it shouldn't have been all that difficult. I understand your frustration, especially when it seems to be swept aside here that you are trying to spread the good word about C&C and get this module to do so... plus you had to pay for it. It also must be frustrating that your willing to do all this and not get paid, or comped or anything but doing it out of love for C&C.

Then come here with your frustrations, people have been nice to you trying to help, but then tell you it isn't TLG's fault it is yours for buying it. Yeah that'd piss me off to.

I'd imagine that Steve won't see it the same way.

So, yeah I get all that... but I am saying don't let this one f**k sour you on something you have given love to all this time. Deep breaths and all that and tomorrow will be better.

Good luck with running the adventure. You seem like a smart guy so I'm sure your gonna pull it off.
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:24 am

I love TLG. I really do. A huge chunk of my gaming dollars (not that that is that much these days ) goes to TLG. That being said, I think jman has an honest beef.

I do feel that many C&C products are written with the presumption that one has access to other materials or, at the least, has had experience with other RPGs. That always irks me a bit, even though I have both of the aforementioned.

The multi-classing stuff is a prime example. Multi-class NPCs come up all the time in the published modules, but those rules (until the new printing) had to be dug up (hell, they still do if you don't have the new PH). How would folks react if a published module included, say, Adjuncts, from the CKG preview in the Crusader, but without any explanation?

Unless specifically noted, the modules and such should be written with the assumption that the player has nothing by the C&C PH and M&T and has never played anything else.

It just seems that whenever someone finds an error or a missing rule or something, that person gets told "big deal, make it up." Yes, one can do that, but it's a bit annoying to be forced to do it.

jman's anger here is not because he can't modify the adventure, but it's because he has to modify it.
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:27 am

Hey Folks,

Jmann. Please be so kind as to give me a shout via PM with your paypal email so I can refund your money.

I said in an earlier thread that I would put the new material up on the website for FREE, and I meant it. I know I never do these things fast enough for everyone, but in my defense I did say it would be after the PH was released and it was only relased a week ago. We only now just got the last of the pre-orders out.

But the modules failings are my fault; no one else is to blame but me. John, I appreciate your attempts to shift blame, but I allowed the book to go to print.

For everyone running games for C&C at your local cons/stores; remember to get the proper support from the company (like the rules shipped to you if you don't have them) please contact seskis via email. We are STILL setting this program up so it is not complete yet, will not run perfectly etc. But it comes with a poster, free quickstart, a soft cover of the PH if needed and adventure material.

Jmann, I honestly didn't remember you were running games at your local convention. I've been entirely too busy to keep up with these things. But if you would email these complaints directly to me or Peter I would appreciate it. It is a rare day when I don't respond to customer complaints. And if you would make me aware of the situation you are in I would move heaven and earth to fix it, get you the material you need so you can run the games.

Regards,

Steve
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dachda · Post by **dachda** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:30 am

Troll Lord wrote:
Hey Folks,

Jmann. Please be so kind as to give me a shout via PM with your paypal email so I can refund your money.

I said in an earlier thread that I would put the new material up on the website for FREE, and I meant it. I know I never do these things fast enough for everyone, but in my defense I did say it would be after the PH was released and it was only relased a week ago. We only now just got the last of the pre-orders out.

But the modules failings are my fault; no one else is to blame but me. John, I appreciate your attempts to shift blame, but I allowed the book to go to print.

For everyone running games for C&C at your local cons/stores; remember to get the proper support from the company (like the rules shipped to you if you don't have them) please contact seskis via email. We are STILL setting this program up so it is not complete yet, will not run perfectly etc. But it comes with a poster, free quickstart, a soft cover of the PH if needed and adventure material.

Jmann, I honestly didn't remember you were running games at your local convention. I've been entirely too busy to keep up with these things. But if you would email these complaints directly to me or Peter I would appreciate it. It is a rare day when I don't respond to customer complaints. And if you would make me aware of the situation you are in I would move heaven and earth to fix it, get you the material you need so you can run the games.

Regards,

Steve

This is why I love TLG. Small enough to have screw-ups, true, but small enough to personally correct the problem and find a solution.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:37 am

A cursory glance at my game shelf as I'm sitting here allows me to easily spot over a dozen products by a handful of different companies, spanning a few game systems that all have done the same thing. Is it annoying when it happens and you lack the sourcebook cited? Hell yes it is.

But, does it make the book (especially something as simple as a module) broken or unusable? No it does not.

I can understand Jman's frustration, I really can. It irritates me to a degree when I find myself in the same boat and I've been on board for awhile about the need for putting the updated info in a free PDF immediately. I wholly agree there.

But, if you don't think you can take Lure of Delusion and run it with a 1st Print Handbook with little to no issues then you are being less than honest.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:39 am

And of course with Steve's response TLG yet again proves just how classy, kick ass they are.