How do you handle PC background knowledge?

[vivsavage]

When detailing PC's background, how does your campaign handle attribute checks that could be affected by that background? For example, let's say a PC fighter grew up on a farm and spent a lot of time fishing and foraging. How do those backgrounds affect the fighter's chances when foraging for food or trying to catch fish for the party that doesn't have a ranger or barbarian?

Another example: for a PC asked to make a riding check, do you account for a (non-knight) player saying "my PC grew up on a farm and tended and rode horses"? Does your campaign assume everyone can ride?

Basically, what assumptions does your campaign make regarding background knowledge, and how does it affect attribute rolls?

[DangerDwarf]

In my games, there's no hard/fast method of determination. We play it by ear.

Generally, new characters aren't very developed. How the character is played those first few sessions helps build a foundation as to what sort of checks can or cant be attempted by that character.

As to how it affects attribute checks? It helps determine what can and c ant be rolled with any measure of sucess.

[Go0gleplex]

You could allow a +1 modifier to their check roll when attempting a task noted in their history, such as fishing. Definitely do not want to allow more than +2...and as previously mentioned, even allowing the modifier at all would be something as circumstances dictate, ie playing it by ear.
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Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Ogre]

I'd think of it this way, people get an attribute bonus already, if someone rode horses a lot growing up this should be represented by their ability scores. If someone grew up in the fighting pits, he probably has high strentgh/con, and that can be represented through those abilities. no need to add extra bonuses.

Also, you can the bonus for your level, but consider that +2 for a level 2 knight that should be leaps and bounds than when your fighter character was a level 0 farm boy.

Keep in mind I might be missing something, I've only read the quick start rules.

[Treebore]

The following reads like hard rules, but its been used far more llike guidelines:

SKILLS and LANGUAGES:

If you want anything beyond what your chosen class give you do a back ground write up explaining how you were raised and trained. As long as you can make it a sensible and realistic back ground I don't care if you have 20 skills or languages. Consider 20 the limit, though.

When I decide a skill/language related roll is needed I will do it as if you have the relevant attribute as Prime, even if it is not, just like I treat Class Skills.

I will not accept skills that are too broadly defined, though. For example, Gymnastics is too broad. You must specify tumbling, balance beam, jumping, the horse, the rings, etc...

As for what a class automatically knows, lets use Wizard as an example. I will be willing to assume they "know" everything about spells, spell casting, spell creation, and creating scrolls, potions, and items. I will not assume they know about magical creatures, the planes of existence, etc...

Similar assumptions will be made for the other spell casting classes. You want them to know about monsters, the planes, etc... then do a back ground write up.

Now a fighter example. I will assume they know how best to fight as an individual and maintain their weapons and armor and how to ride their horse and give basic care to their horse and riding gear. If you want them to know how to make armor, weapons, leather goods, medically treat themselves or others, to be perceptive, etc... you must write up a background history.

For clarity, also list your skills you think your write up gives you. So after you finish your write up then list skills like this:

Weapon crafting

fishing

mountain climbing

skinning animals

etc...

EVERYONE HAS THE FOLLOWING, meaning they can add their level to the following checks:

COMMON ABILITIES

Common ability checks automatically improve as characters advance in level,

Common abilities include:

Strength: Feats of strength, jump, swim

Intelligence: Appraise, estimate, recall information

Wisdom: Perception, sense motive, direction sense

Dexterity: Balance, climb (simple things, like trees)

Constitution: Stamina, fortitude

Charisma: Bluff, haggle, intimidate, persuasion

This is a game about "abstraction", not precise reality, so I generalize skills to the population quite a bit, so combine this with Prime versus non Prime, and then getting to add class level or not, we get plenty of "realistic" skill variation.
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[Omote]

We use a background/secondary skill system to flesh those things out.

~O
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[ThrorII]

I do it very much like Treebore:

general SIEGE checks add the character level and attribute bonus.
STRENGTH

Jumping, Intimidate, Swim, forcing doors, lifting.
DEXTERITY

Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand

Climb: a successful check allows climbing of typical slopes and inclines at 1/2 move rate. Checks are only required under stress or without rope. To climb shear surfaces, or virtually impossible surfaces require the Ranger or Rogue abilities.

Hide: a successful check allows concealing yourself. Must have a method of concealing yourself [behind something, under something, etc]. Cannot move and hide at the same time. Rangers and Rogues have expanded abilities.

Move Silently: allows to character to move quietly (not silently) at 1/2 speed. Unable to move silently on some surfaces [gravel, leaves, etc]. Rangers and Rogues have expanded abilities.

Horsemanship: a successful check allows the character to mount, ride, dismount, perform simple leaps/manuevers. Check is only needed in stress situation.
INTELLIGENCE

Appraise, Forgery

Knowledge: To attempt a knowledge check the character must reasonably be expected to have that knowledge in his class background. Typical catagories include Arcana [wiz/ilu], Nature [rang/dru], Geography [all], Nobility [knt], History [all], Religion [clr, dru, pal].
WISDOM

Spot

Listen: A successful check allows for hearing of normal sounds [talking, fighting, etc] through a wooden door or similar obstacle. Outside, it allows hearing a whisper within 10 feet.

Survival: A successful check allows the character to successfully provide shelter, food and water for themselves and others (2-8 people). Takes 8 hours. Rangers have expanded survival abilities.

Track: Allows the character to track any creature leaving regular discernible tracks. Checks made every 5 hours. Cannot determine specific features [number, type, status, etc]. Rangers have expanded tracking abilities.
CHARISMA

Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Information, Intimidate

[Treebore]

We may do it so similar because you may be the one I stole some of the descriptions from.
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[dunbruha]

ThrorII wrote:
I do it very much like Treebore:

general SIEGE checks add the character level and attribute bonus.
STRENGTH

Jumping, Intimidate, Swim, forcing doors, lifting.
DEXTERITY

Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand

Climb: a successful check allows climbing of typical slopes and inclines at 1/2 move rate. Checks are only required under stress or without rope. To climb shear surfaces, or virtually impossible surfaces require the Ranger or Rogue abilities.

Hide: a successful check allows concealing yourself. Must have a method of concealing yourself [behind something, under something, etc]. Cannot move and hide at the same time. Rangers and Rogues have expanded abilities.

Move Silently: allows to character to move quietly (not silently) at 1/2 speed. Unable to move silently on some surfaces [gravel, leaves, etc]. Rangers and Rogues have expanded abilities.

Horsemanship: a successful check allows the character to mount, ride, dismount, perform simple leaps/manuevers. Check is only needed in stress situation.
INTELLIGENCE

Appraise, Forgery

Knowledge: To attempt a knowledge check the character must reasonably be expected to have that knowledge in his class background. Typical catagories include Arcana [wiz/ilu], Nature [rang/dru], Geography [all], Nobility [knt], History [all], Religion [clr, dru, pal].
WISDOM

Spot

Listen: A successful check allows for hearing of normal sounds [talking, fighting, etc] through a wooden door or similar obstacle. Outside, it allows hearing a whisper within 10 feet.

Survival: A successful check allows the character to successfully provide shelter, food and water for themselves and others (2-8 people). Takes 8 hours. Rangers have expanded survival abilities.

Track: Allows the character to track any creature leaving regular discernible tracks. Checks made every 5 hours. Cannot determine specific features [number, type, status, etc]. Rangers have expanded tracking abilities.
CHARISMA

Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Information, Intimidate

I would not add level to any of these. Attribute bonus, yes. And if the PC has been consistently role-playing the practice of one of them, then a +1 or +2 bonus as they get better at it. But the idea that a wizard gets better at (for example) swimming as she gets more experience, when she may never have swum at all, strains belief to me.

[gideon_thorne]

DangerDwarf wrote:
In my games, there's no hard/fast method of determination. We play it by ear.

This.
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[ThrorII]

dunbruha wrote:
I would not add level to any of these. Attribute bonus, yes. And if the PC has been consistently role-playing the practice of one of them, then a +1 or +2 bonus as they get better at it. But the idea that a wizard gets better at (for example) swimming as she gets more experience, when she may never have swum at all, strains belief to me.

I understand your stance. My reasoning is that as characters adventure, they get better at things. While Roonok the apprentice wizard (level 1) might drown crossing the Great River, Milton the Mighty (wizard 12) is just too much a damn HERO to die that way...unless his roll REALLY SUX
Since I don't do "skills" per se, the only chance of advancement in any of these activities is generic level advancement. Had this been 3.5 (ghak!! ) Milton the mighty might have placed skill points in swimming, but in C&C that is not a desired complication.

[koralas]

ThrorII wrote:
I understand your stance. My reasoning is that as characters adventure, they get better at things. While Roonok the apprentice wizard (level 1) might drown crossing the Great River, Milton the Mighty (wizard 12) is just too much a damn HERO to die that way...unless his roll REALLY SUX
Since I don't do "skills" per se, the only chance of advancement in any of these activities is generic level advancement. Had this been 3.5 (ghak!! ) Milton the mighty might have placed skill points in swimming, but in C&C that is not a desired complication.

I do agree on not adding level bonus to these. A small bonus as had been said earlier makes sense, but the character is not continuing to progress the skills as they need to focus on their class abilities. Even such should be meted out with care, lest the slippery slope to a skill system come forth. Generally if you have in the past been honing certain skills, this is reflected in the six attributes and their modifiers, only is extraordinary circumstance (a great reason and read) would I give out more of a bonus.

Consider that there are reasons you have moments of high anxiety when coming to things like a raging river. Do the hero's attempt to cross, look for a more fordable portion of the river, a bridge, or ferry? Such items abound in fiction, and even make parts of many plot devices. Think of the highly trained athletes of today. They can't best all obstacles from their chosen specialty. If that is true, then how can you expect someone who spends most of their non-adventuring time in a laboratory or library to be able to succeed where someone that focuses their time on that particular task cannot?

To me the biggest problem is that you can craft a background for a Wizard, using the examples above, that has most of the abilities of a Ranger and Rogue, using the examples you had given, though truly, the skills are limited only by the creativity of the writer. While in some of the skills you state that Rangers/Rogues have expanded abilities, most of the differences are slight, and can also be explained away in character background, such as living in a mountainous area and often would climb the face of rocky cliffs. Further, why list climb, when it is for "typical slopes and inclines", if they are typical, they don't need a test, and further even if they do, ANYONE can do it, it is not extraordinary, the same for "move quietly", "hide", and "track". Listen is far more difficult ability than people give it credit for as it relates to tuning out that which is easy to hear, and concentrating on hearing what is beyond a door. Ever try it? It is not easy, so again, ANYONE can try it, but very few can do it to the level of a Thief. And Survival is most definitely a skill that is difficult, and often dangerous to use. The average person, unless they grow up in a remote region, not even rural as this extends beyond that, will be almost useless in trying to tell you which plants are edible as opposed to poisonous, how to find good fresh water, or even be able to hunt adequately. If you grow up in rural (and some would even argue remote regions), you would know something about the local area, but extend out, and your ability to gather drops quickly and dramatically since you don't know where to go to find water, berries, nuts, etc. Further, the one part of the ability you leave off for the RAW Ranger ability is discerning True North. By far, this ability would be more common than foraging for a group of people. I know many people, myself included, that seem to have an internal compass and can find north with a great deal of accuracy, True North, maybe not always, but close. In all of these situations, a thief or ranger that has spent his career honing those skills and as such can add his level. Someone that spent their childhood and adolescence doing so, before taking up a profession that does not continue to improve those skills, does not.

Wow, this almost comes off as an attack, but it is not meant to be so. Since the original post asks how others do it, I thought I would give a brief description of how my group would handle such, only the ability modifier or small bonus (if any) mentioned above, as well as reasoning to not add the characters level to the check. When messing with the core of the SIEGEengine, you start down a slippery slope that can come back full circle to the d20 style skill/feat system, so care must be utilized, unless of course that is your goal!
Most importantly though, is that this is a game, more, a ROLEplaying game. And rule #1 is to have fun, rule #2 is change any rules to meet the goal of rule #1. Beyond those, the sky is the limit. What may be my groups style of play may not be the same as your group. So who is right? Both of course!

[Lord Dynel]

I would arbitrarily give a +1 or something like that to a PC for "pre-adventuring" knowledge. In the OP's case, I would allow a +1 bonus to checks concerning farm life and such (horse tending/riding and the like). I don't think it would be too much of a mechanical advantage to allow these bonuses. I also allow for "in game" knowledge bonuses for things PCs might accomplish. One character in my game wanted to learn more or undead, and I allowed them to get a bonus when fighting/dealing with undead (after a while of fighting/studying undead).
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[Zebulon]

vivsavage wrote:
Basically, what assumptions does your campaign make regarding background knowledge, and how does it affect attribute rolls?

IMO prime attributes are good enough to reflect a character's background. Prime in Strength: the character was an athlete practicing all manners of sports and heavy labor abilities. Prime in Intelligence: the character got a good education, did read a lot of books, etc. That is, a player can use his prime attribute to build his character's background.

Now, if the CK is willing to add a little more detail, give a simple background: Rural/peasant, Urban/city-dweller, Religious/raised-in-a-monastery (even if not of a priest class), Tradesman/professional, Forester, Mountaineer, etc. Thereafter, every time the character makes an attribute check in the related environment doing things related to that environment, they get a +2 bonus to their attribute check. For example, if the character has the Forester background, they get a +2 bonus to knowledge-nature checks when in forest, to climb trees, to hide in forests, to find their way across a forest, to track animals in a forest, etc., but not to build mansions in a forest or deal with a merchant inside a forest.
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[CharlieRock]

I use the skill system we found in Crusader #14(?). Random dice determined or player picked.
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[Ogre]

As far as getting better at swimming/etc, could you just add maybe half the level bonus for something close to your class, and than no level bonus for something opposite your class.

A rogue is closer to a wizard than say a fighter, clerics and fighters are pretty similar as well, clerics and rogues are opposite, fighters and wizards are opposites.

does that make sense?

[Saarlander]

My two cents on this
As we achieved our fist campaign, we definitely had our habits on this kicked in:
* Heroes (as the PCs technically are) can do most things adventuring, so unless very specific circumstances, we just used full SIEGE checks for adventuring tasks (Att.mod + level), like running for some time, swimming, climbing, so on...

* Concerning Background experience, this worked fine... and allowed for some fun situations when it actually was clear a PC WOULDN'T get his level added for some "normal" checks (like an INT check for the Barbarian from the remote land to identify a knights flag, or actually swimming for a character originating from the southern desert).

On the other end, this allows for some nice PC diversification; one character in our game is a Bard/Assassin, yet a excellent fisher as well, as she is a fishers daughter, and the Ranger/Wizard is also a military tactician, since his home town has mandatory military service for 2 years he went through)

* Finally, for the sake of keeping Class Abilities a step above simple "skill checks", Class Abilities count as partial success even when the check is failed, and absolute success when the check makes it (so, while anyone in my party could try to sneak on an enemy with a DEX+level check, a Rogue or Assassin would require a check from the enemy to notice him EVEN if he failed his Move Silently... while the other PCs would be noticed as soon as they failed their DEX... and yes, in my games, when a Rogue succeeds at Move Silently, you just can't hear him, period)

I guess our method makes for PCs somewhat more skilled than a hardcore gamer might want them to, but it really had us running the game smoothly and really had the players be bold and daring out of their niche....
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[Treebore]

Saarlander wrote:
* Finally, for the sake of keeping Class Abilities a step above simple "skill checks", Class Abilities count as partial success even when the check is failed, and absolute success when the check makes it (so, while anyone in my party could try to sneak on an enemy with a DEX+level check, a Rogue or Assassin would require a check from the enemy to notice him EVEN if he failed his Move Silently... while the other PCs would be noticed as soon as they failed their DEX... and yes, in my games, when a Rogue succeeds at Move Silently, you just can't hear him, period)

[/list]

Nice!
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