The age-old question - homebrew or published world?

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Lord Dynel
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The age-old question - homebrew or published world?

Post by Lord Dynel »

I know, there's been threads upon thread, upon threads talking about this. Can we bear through another one? Please??
I was rummaging through some old papers and in on of my upper garage's cabinets I found an old campaign map I drew. A friend and I worked on it together, actually, and reckons to be about 15-ish years old. I'll bore you all with a little history, if you don't mind.
When I first started BD&D, it was Known World, all the way. This lasted from 86-87. I then bought, AD&D in '87 and I promptly bought Greyhawk and went with that. I also bought Forgotten Realms in 1988 (late 88, iirc, as I took a brief sabbatical to MSHRPG), and as soon as I got that I went into it full steam. I played it for a few years and in about 1992 (around the time of the "Greyhawk Revival") I went back to Greyhawk for a few years. I came back to FR in the early 2000's to coincide with 3e - I had gotten my wife involved and at that point, though not a D&D player, was a Driz'zt fan (hey, it was better than nothing! ) and played it until '05, when I went back (for the last time) to Greyhawk and it currently is my campaign of choice (I did start my C&C game in the Haunted Halls of Eveningstar, but it quickly became the Haunted Halls of Willp).

My droning does have a point. The whole time I was playing these campaigns, I was working on my own campaign world. I even tried it a few times, working it in here and there on one-shots and very small arcs (I purposely left this out in my above timeframe). I started in the late 80s and got a small setting done (to my liking) and ready for play in the early 90s. The kids I got to play enjoyed it, but it seems like something was missing. So I shelved it for a few years and got to remake it in the mid 90's and what resulted was the map I mentioned in the very beginning, done with a friend. We each had our own group (this was the first person I ever taught to play D&D and my best friend) and were going to keep each other updated on things going on, eventually doing crossover groups and having the world "grow" as time went on. The map, and a handful of places (and maybe a pantheon) got developed, but the project got lost in the shuffle.

I eventually went on to make another campaign world that was my second campaign in the 3/3.5 D&D era (after my initial FR one) and it ended up lasting a couple years. This was a campaign I borrowed from the co-op one my friend and I had done, but with a lot of new information (locales, pantheon, etc.). When that game ended no one had anything terrible to say, no one had anything great to say, either. A computer malfunction later, and I lost all my computer files on my world. I still have some hardcopy maps and a guide, but I'll have to retype the whole thing if I want to make any adjustments to it (or at least retype and print the sections I want to revise).

I love published worlds. The '83 Greyhawk box and the Forgotten Realms "Grey Box" are pure gold, not to mention Harn, City-State, and AWD. They all have a certain awesome quality and I would be happy to run any one of those till the end of my days. But there's this part of me that knows it's not "mine," no matter how much I can change it, mold it, it's still someone else's brainchild, someone else's passion.

But unearthing this map has made me yearn for creating a world of my own. One of my issues are time, which I never seem to have enough of. Another one of my issues is the "disassociation" it seems players have in games in my campaign world. I can't quite put a finger on it, but it seems like my players don't connect with my campaign setting. I'm sorry to be vague, but that's the best way I can describe it. Maybe it's the fact they're used to published settings. Maybe published setting are "more real" to them than something I create. I'm not trying to be unfair to my group, but it seems like they just can't "get into" a campaign of my creation. Granted, they haven't had much exposure to it and perhaps in the past I haven't given them enough time to get to know the world, so to speak.

Knowing these reservations, I ask those who do play in their own world - what motivation do you have to keep your world going? Is it well accepted by your players? What are the main draws that keep you in your world as opposed as opposed to another, published, setting? Along the same lines, what do you all consider to be "pros" and "cons" or campaign setting creation? What's your advice to those, like me, who's on the world-creating fence and need a push one way or another? Who have the drive, but perhaps no the will?

Thanks for reading, guys, and sorry it's so long.
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Sir Osis of Liver
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Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

Good post, LD.
Like you, I enjoy the "canned" setting. The good ones are chock full of ideas. My biggest problem using them is, as you suggested, that lackof feeling of it being my own. I LOVE coming up with the setting and the story. It's a complete manifestation of my own imagination. While it's possible to capture that in a canned setting, it's as you said concerning the question of where/how to fit your ideas into the world. Part of the hope is finding an area of the world that hasn't been done to death in modules etc.

The other thing is that yearning for "newness." I have guys who have bought up many of the popular game settings and have learned the systems front to back. It's not fun for me when they know more about me. "That doesn't jive with what happened in the Greyhawk Wars." Bite me. It all goes back to that issue of needing to have everything spelled out for you in concrete rules from the publisher vs. letting your imagination do the work. When you run a homebrew setting, not only is the world completely new for the players, but like all of the published settings, the homebrew ones are works in progress, being written with each game session. That's the fun for me, seeing the players take the bait and run with it.

I always looked at the canned settings as sources of inspiration. Take neat bits from one and integrate it into yours. If there are sources of political intrigue written into the setting, they are good starting points as well. Integrating current events (religious zealots, spy scandals, coups d'etat, economic turmoil, arms races, collar territorial instability etc.) as well as story lines from either TV shows as well as the old radio serials make for fun plot hooks. I just really love the setting being a synthesis of my own likes.

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Post by CKDad »

Maybe it's because I started playing before there was really much in the way of published settings. But aside from Shadowrun and a few Traveller scenarios, I've always been a homebrew kind of guy.

Not that I don't enjoy published settings; I've enjoyed reading many, had fun playing in some, stole from most.
But when I'm running the game, I usually cobble together something of my own. (Or in the case of Traveller, pull out stuff that I've been working on off and on for 30 years.)
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Post by serleran »

I find the best way to enjoy a setting is to make it your own. When players can start reciting what they expect and "know" about a world, then it is no longer fantasy... it is collective boredom. So, I take the things I like from as many places as I can get, and then mash them together, add in my own garbage, and then call that "home."
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Post by Treebore »

Yeah, like Serleran says, take a setting, use what you like, but make everything "your own". Make it fit how you like things to be.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Some of my settings (the one with my friend, and the ones on my own) had bits and pieces from other fantasy sources. Things I liked and thought they would go well in the hodge-podge of a campaign setting. And like a few of you have said, I have altered a setting to my liking as well. In the latter case is where I find myself thinking, "Hell, if I'm going to do A, B, X, Y, and Z, to this setting, why not just make my own?" But my fears of making my own setting revolve around getting the players "interested."

I hope I'm not sounding too wishy-washy, or what not. Thanks for the comments, so far, and appreciate anything brought to the table.
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Post by Go0gleplex »

I enjoy the heck out of reading 'canned' settings...but when it comes to playing and designing adventures I'll go with my own 90% of the time. I have a hard time fitting my stuff into a perceived time line or such when trying to run in canned settings.
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Post by seskis281 »

Hey Gus,

I would fit to a great extent in the "use existing settings" but adapt them to make them "my own"...

I did with this with Greyhawk for years. I did it with Kalamer during my 3.0 days. I did it with Aihrde, and I actually am doing it with my own Ilshara, which I "finished" as a completely written and developed world, but even in my own case I my current campaign sees differences.

I also long ago adopted the fantasy "multi-verse" approach.... like the theory of multiple universes, there can be multiple Greyhawks, Faeruns, etc. And so I can reset or shift to a differing one at any time.

Right now I have "retired" Greyhawk as primary setting, tho my players do sometimes find there way there through the planes for a little quest. I use either Aihrde or Ilshara as my primary setting (did a year and a half in the AWD setting, now we are into 2nd year of Ilshara), and drop in parts of the Wilderlands here and there within those settings.

But, like you, I find myself drawn to looking back at others.... just last night I pulled out my Dragonlance, my FR or my Kalamar stuff and look at it. I've even gotten drawn into Eberron a bit (believe it or not), tho there it's more for the pulling of ideas (using aspects of city of Sharn for my campaign's city of Malystare).

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Post by Go0gleplex »

I enjoy the heck out of reading 'canned' settings...but when it comes to playing and designing adventures I'll go with my own 90% of the time. I have a hard time fitting my stuff into a perceived time line or such when trying to run in canned settings.
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Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

Lord Dynel wrote:
But my fears of making my own setting revolve around getting the players "interested."

I hope I'm not sounding too wishy-washy, or what not. Thanks for the comments, so far, and appreciate anything brought to the table.


For my setting, I found one single hook that served as the common thread binding the world together. From that point, I was able to build around it. But I tried making sure that I really set the hook, then the rest of the pieces fall into place. Between that, and I also give them a great deal of latitude in coming up with character concepts. I really emphasize that. Everybody writes up character histories that we integrate into gameplay.

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Post by Ogre »

I've never used a premade world, I have always designed my own, just don't try to do to much at one time, let yourself discover it, decide on a certain region, game in that area, and expand as needed.

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Post by Omote »

One of the joys in creating and running a homebrew world, has been watching players adventure in it and expand the history and story of my homebrew world. As the years have gone by, players have actually re-adventured in the same areas, just years later in-game, with characters and events from those previous eras influencing the current game. NPCs and PCs turned NPCs alike add to the level of detail of the setting, and make the players who have played there, feel like they were part of the whole process, which of course, they were.

This makes the setting, a real "living world" if you will.

Mostly though, I have played in canned settings like Greyhawk. From time to time these settings kind of blend together for players, but I know which worlds are which.
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make your own!

Post by Barrataria »

Actually, C&C's release was the first thing that inspired me to try to make a world from scratch. Like you I had only used Greyhawk and KW for previous games, but I thought I would try a blank slate to make a place for the various new aspects of C&C.

I've found it to be one of the most interesting hobbies I've ever undertaken... I think I like worldbuilding better than the actual game part! The key, IMO, is to be conscious of the difference between world design and game preparation. They don't go hand in hand, and it's easy to spend hours and hours worldmaking that leaves you unprepared for the game itself.

You might start the game in a (relatively) undeveloped corner of your world, which would let your players have a hand in design. Maybe they can brainstorm details on their home towns, patron deities, and so on.

And for your sake, as serl and others suggest, think of your favorite aspects (modules, other game worlds) and borrow or steal as desired. My C&C world is heavily influenced by the Necromancer Games modules; my B/X world is inspired in large part by the old Basic modules, and just in the past few weeks I've been messing about with an AD&D world as well, mixing some of the classic module backgrounds with a great map and a great history book on the Mediterranean I recently picked up. I've spent many enjoyable hours on these things, and only a tiny portion have made it into my B/X game. But again, for me it's like a hobby within a hobby.

So... make it your own! I've found my 80's campaigns didn't really involve much I can use now, but maybe you'll fare better in that way too.
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Post by Treebore »

Why don't I just do my own world from scratch?

Simple.

I suck at doing maps.

So I find settings with pretty maps and make them my own.
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Post by Ogre »

I never had maps for my games, we just sort of went with it...

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Post by Barrataria »

Treebore wrote:
Why don't I just do my own world from scratch?

Simple.

I suck at doing maps.

So I find settings with pretty maps and make them my own.

Boo Treebore! Don't listen to my pessimistic penpal.
There are loads of free resources... try the Cartographers' Guild http://forum.cartographersguild.com/index.php where friendly folks publish new maps constantly. They're also very helpful for newcomers who might be interested in drawing their own maps, and can point you to a variety of free software that will help you do just that.

Or try the WotC Map-A-Week archive: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/mw. Note that if you somehow can find the old Forgotten Realms CD Atlas, you can use the map reader to view and print virtually every map made for 1E and 2E Forgotten Realms.

For encounter maps, I highly recommend www.topoquest.com. You can use these free topographic maps at a variety of zoom levels.

Finally, the makers of Campaign Cartographer software have a free map reader that will allow you to look at the many many maps they have available for download. See them at www.profantasy.com.
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Post by Treebore »

Barrataria wrote:
Boo Treebore! Don't listen to my pessimistic penpal.
There are loads of free resources... try the Cartographers' Guild http://forum.cartographersguild.com/index.php where friendly folks publish new maps constantly. They're also very helpful for newcomers who might be interested in drawing their own maps, and can point you to a variety of free software that will help you do just that.

Or try the WotC Map-A-Week archive: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/mw. Note that if you somehow can find the old Forgotten Realms CD Atlas, you can use the map reader to view and print virtually every map made for 1E and 2E Forgotten Realms.

For encounter maps, I highly recommend www.topoquest.com. You can use these free topographic maps at a variety of zoom levels.

Finally, the makers of Campaign Cartographer software have a free map reader that will allow you to look at the many many maps they have available for download. See them at www.profantasy.com.

See? If I am going to put all that effort, or money, into it, may as well get a bunch of the PC's, histories, etc... written up.

I mean do you know how long it would take me to write up something like the Wilderlands, let alone do maps for it?

I tried my own home brew stuff for a couple of years. It eventually became predictable. So taking settings someone else did and making it my own has kept things much "fresher".
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by Philotomy Jurament »

Over the years I've used the Known World, Greyhawk, and the Wilderlands. I've also used my own setting several times. These days, I've pretty much settled on doing my own thing, and don't have much interest in commercial settings.
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Post by AslanC »

I think you know where I stand on this topic
Oh and nice to see Cartographers Guild getting some love. I haunt those boards as well
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Post by Barrataria »

Treebore wrote:
See? If I am going to put all that effort, or money, into it, may as well get a bunch of the PC's, histories, etc... written up.

Money? Everything on those sites is free (except the actual CC3 software, which you don't need just to mooch their free maps).

I'm just teasing mostly, but over the past few years I've noticed (ESPECIALLY with modules) that it takes more time to prune stuff I DON'T want than it does to pencil in what I like in the first place.

I probably spend 75% or more of my worldbuilding time on just hobby-type doodling, map-drawing, etc. I know you have many other demands on your time (particularly your farming) so I get why you wouldn't bother. Just don't let maps be the reason you don't
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I use Fantasy Settings from Novels

Post by lobocastle »

Currently I am designing my own world "Terra World." I mostly, use game worlds from novels though, but set them 100 to 1,000 years in the future. I have use Shannara, Magnamund, Corona, and Diablo.

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Post by anglefish »

In the past, it was a lack of interest on the players' part. Basically, I'd want to create a very off-beat world and they'd want a very vanilla DnD setting, partially because they wanted more hack and slash.

Ironically, my current crew would be more open minded to a homebrew, but we've now mishmashed three published settings into our creation:

- Pathfinder monsters and modules

- Freeport City setting

- Dawnforge world maps and politics

I feel like I got the best of both worlds.

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Post by Treebore »

Barrataria wrote:
Money? Everything on those sites is free (except the actual CC3 software, which you don't need just to mooch their free maps).

I'm just teasing mostly, but over the past few years I've noticed (ESPECIALLY with modules) that it takes more time to prune stuff I DON'T want than it does to pencil in what I like in the first place.

I probably spend 75% or more of my worldbuilding time on just hobby-type doodling, map-drawing, etc. I know you have many other demands on your time (particularly your farming) so I get why you wouldn't bother. Just don't let maps be the reason you don't

Yeah, back when I did my own world I had many hours of boring time at work to pass. Writing in a notebook was an acceptable way to pass that time.

Now I do not have hours of time to pass like that, not even on digital map making products.

So for me I pay money to buy those maps in order to save me the time.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by Aladar »

Way back in the day, our old gaming group each took a section/country of the campaign world we were working on and fleshed it out. Then we were going to put it all together and make one big area. Each of us would DM any adventures in our own area, then play in the other areas.

Worked out great for a while until we all moved (being in the Army and all). Now days I just take a "canned" world, i.e. Greyhawk currently, and just make it my own by adding stuff. I no longer have the time to build my own campaign world unfortunately. Life, work, and family commitments will do that over the years.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Thanks for all the replies, guys!

I think that I am going to start working on my setting again. I can add some of the new stuff I've been dreaming up to the world I had already created and revise some of that old stuff. We're in a Star Wars campaign now, taking a break from fantasy. Even though I'm GM'ing, it should give me time to get my setting worked on.

I think at the end of the day, I'm in love with the fact that everything is mine - I created the pantheon, this forest, that kingdom, those islands. Everything might not have a purpose, it just might be there for it's own sake. But I want it there, and that's the way I like want it.
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Post by Geleg »

i think it depends on your play style, interests, and available time.

I've always taken a published setting as a very general background and then completely altered it as I like. As I've grown older, I find I don't have time for world-building from the ground up. I also find myself aching to use (highly modified) published adventures. The old perfectionist gene used to tell me 'ah, but those aren't you ... do your own'. Now my busy gene wins out, and tells me "a patchwork, even with the time needed for modification, is easier than a completely new project".

I'm starting up a new campaign on Thursday, and it began with a single sheet of graph paper on which I drew a valley whose sole reason for existence is to house a number of adventures I want to offer to my players. As I thought about it for about 6 months, the valley came to life, and a lot more of me was injected into it. But when it came time to start the campaign, I found that most of my energies had been devoted over the previous six months to adventure design and a single 40x30-mile region. So I picked up my favorite published setting, JG's WIlderlands, and found a nice set of hexes without too much in the way of interest going on and plopped my valley into it. I then rewrote the deities list to fit the adventures I'd been writing, ignored all of the funky racial identities (and skin tones), and boiled the complex politics down to a three sentence summary. And my newbie players are completely jazzed! "woah! this Invincible Overlord thing sounds cool!". And you know what? they're right, mostly because I don't feel the need to run the IO, the City State, or any of the JG stuff as it was originally written.

So I feel I've gotten the best of both worlds - homebrew for the starting point and in-depth regional focus, with a nice thin set of broad geographical and historical strokes to give it some color. As the players move on, they are likely to shape the wilderlands in ways that will be partly theirs and partly mine.

Not sure that this helps you much, but it helped me a lot! Sometimes its good to vocalize the justifications you've been making! For me, it was mixing home brew and published. Maybe for you the justification needs to be 'it's okay to run my own thing'.

cool thread - thanks for starting it.
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Lord Dynel
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Geleg wrote:
i think it depends on your play style, interests, and available time.

I've always taken a published setting as a very general background and then completely altered it as I like. As I've grown older, I find I don't have time for world-building from the ground up. I also find myself aching to use (highly modified) published adventures. The old perfectionist gene used to tell me 'ah, but those aren't you ... do your own'. Now my busy gene wins out, and tells me "a patchwork, even with the time needed for modification, is easier than a completely new project".

I'm starting up a new campaign on Thursday, and it began with a single sheet of graph paper on which I drew a valley whose sole reason for existence is to house a number of adventures I want to offer to my players. As I thought about it for about 6 months, the valley came to life, and a lot more of me was injected into it. But when it came time to start the campaign, I found that most of my energies had been devoted over the previous six months to adventure design and a single 40x30-mile region. So I picked up my favorite published setting, JG's WIlderlands, and found a nice set of hexes without too much in the way of interest going on and plopped my valley into it. I then rewrote the deities list to fit the adventures I'd been writing, ignored all of the funky racial identities (and skin tones), and boiled the complex politics down to a three sentence summary. And my newbie players are completely jazzed! "woah! this Invincible Overlord thing sounds cool!". And you know what? they're right, mostly because I don't feel the need to run the IO, the City State, or any of the JG stuff as it was originally written.

So I feel I've gotten the best of both worlds - homebrew for the starting point and in-depth regional focus, with a nice thin set of broad geographical and historical strokes to give it some color. As the players move on, they are likely to shape the wilderlands in ways that will be partly theirs and partly mine.

Not sure that this helps you much, but it helped me a lot! Sometimes its good to vocalize the justifications you've been making! For me, it was mixing home brew and published. Maybe for you the justification needs to be 'it's okay to run my own thing'.

cool thread - thanks for starting it.

Yoiu're quite welcome, Geleg. I love reading these types of threads - honest, opinon-based, the tossing around of idea types of threads.

I have considered doing just that - plopping something down in the middle of someplace else, someplace already established. But I figured, in the end, if I'm going to do that, where the "established" campaign setting is going to be in the background and all my stuff is foreground, why not take it that next step and just put my stuff down on a fresh canvas? Now I understand that might not work for everybody. Hell, it might not even work for me, in the end. That's why I like hearing ideas like you and others have posted - in case things don't work out exactly the way I want them to.
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anglefish
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Post by anglefish »

Geleg wrote:
... So I picked up my favorite published setting, JG's WIlderlands, and found a nice set of hexes without too much in the way of interest going on and plopped my valley into it....

So I feel I've gotten the best of both worlds - homebrew for the starting point and in-depth regional focus, with a nice thin set of broad geographical and historical strokes to give it some color. As the players move on, they are likely to shape the wilderlands in ways that will be partly theirs and partly mine. ...

Exactly how I feel about my current setting. The things I'm not thrilled with haven't come up from my players, so they don't exist and the NPC they've dealt with now have a personal history with the PC that go beyond the starting paragraph.

I feel like I have a homebrew, even though my "notes" are on printed pages.

Barrataria
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Post by Barrataria »

Aladar wrote:
Way back in the day, our old gaming group each took a section/country of the campaign world we were working on and fleshed it out. Then we were going to put it all together and make one big area. Each of us would DM any adventures in our own area, then play in the other areas.

I recall interesting advice like this in the MegaTraveller books... they suggested starting two separate adventuring groups at opposite ends of the sector/galaxy, and have them move towards one another. That would be cool if you had a co-GM that was on the same page with you as you ran your game...
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Cugel the Clever
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Post by Cugel the Clever »

LD, I went through a similar reflection recently, oddly enough inspired by someone else's homebrew stuff (picked up for free, along with stacks of OD&D books...I owe my wife big time for joining Freecycle ). Looking through someone else's campaign notes, drawings, maps & characters reminded me of all the campaigns I've run, usually in published settings. So, inspired by that and reinforced by some ENWorld or DF threads on sandbox settings, and finally Fight On! #6, I decided to start with a small published setting (Haunted Highlands, because I love the map), transmogrified to my taste (about the only thing left is the map, Dirty's roadhouse and the names of the major sites). I set up a game wiki for my group, posted some sketchy details, then set them loose. I'm fleshing it out as I have time, and the idea is that someday I'll have my own world grown from the HH seed. And involving the players in the fleshing out has served as a reinforcing function, for those times that my own creativity flags.

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