Making Orisons and Cantrips unlimited a problem?

[papercut]

Pathfinder has a nice little cantrip for wizards that makes them a bit more playable at low levels:

Acid Splash

School conjuration (creation) [acid]; Level sorcerer/wizard 0

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Effect one missile of acid

Duration instantaneous

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

You fire a small orb of acid at the target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The orb deals 1d3 points of acid damage. This acid disappears after 1 round.

Would making making Orisons and Cantrips unlimited be a problem in terms of game balance for C&C? Treebore has another solution to limited "at will" damage spells for wizards but this seems a bit simpler.
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[gideon_thorne]

I don't really see any reason why it would? Most of these are simple magic and not really a major game altering thing.
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Peter Bradley

[serleran]

I would not allow an orison / cantrip that caused / healed damage to be unlimited, nor would I allow such as a spell of this level. But, beyond that... it makes the spellcasters even more powerful, which is not something I feel they need.
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Serl's Corner

[papercut]

The idea is for more for extended sessions. 1d3 is actually less than a bow or such and would only be helpful for low level characters, and the orison that heals is only a bandage which stops bleeding, not really a heal. As is, even with a high Int, Wizards can only cast 4 first level spells.

I can understand why a VIP Troll might not like unlimited acid damage though!
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[jaguar451]

I don't like Acid thing at first level, and ranged touch is relatively easy, but there is definitely a part of me that liked a little bit more low-powered magic from the Wizard....

Maybe something like a mystic punch (or a better name) doing subdual damage (or regular for easier book keeping.)

Although also consider non-combat spells -- limitless endure elements, lots of food & water, .... Maybe increase casting time for certain spells and/or include a cap of how many spells can be 'active' at a time (based on level, perhaps.)

But then it get's more complex...

[serleran]

If I were to do this, I would probably create a limited list (more limited than the current spell list, that is) of things which could be done, or have the effects be generated by the personality of the character -- for example, a guy who wants his mage to be a "fire wizard" could probably uninhibitedly produce a "flare" which can ignite his pipe, and maybe a piece of paper, provided it were within a very precise range (say, 2-3 feet.) Naturally, this would be more "difficult" to do as each character would end up as unique, but I think it would be more interesting than "all wizards can hurl globs of acid as much as they want."
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Serl's Corner

[Barrataria]

serleran wrote:
If I were to do this, I would probably create a limited list (more limited than the current spell list, that is) of things which could be done, or have the effects be generated by the personality of the character -- for example, a guy who wants his mage to be a "fire wizard" could probably uninhibitedly produce a "flare" which can ignite his pipe, and maybe a piece of paper, provided it were within a very precise range (say, 2-3 feet.) Naturally, this would be more "difficult" to do as each character would end up as unique, but I think it would be more interesting than "all wizards can hurl globs of acid as much as they want."

This is more in line with what I am comfortable with... the 3E/4E "eldritch blast" thing... instead of your wizard lugging darts or multiple daggers around to throw in melee, let them shoot these "things" which have the same range as daggers/darts and do the same amount of damage.

In my B/X game I've limited it to something like 6 per day +1 per level; in C&C I probably wouldn't bother. Like Serl I also like leaving the TYPE of damage up to the player at character creation... acid? OK. flame? OK, you're a pyrologist, "arcane energy", acid, gravel or salt blast (earth mage?)...

I'd be more inclined to make acid splash a 1st level spell and let it inflict a bit more damage... helps the wizards if they are fighting things immune to fire or electricity.
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[Breakdaddy]

It is just fine, and we playtested it for a while in a manner. I gave casters a staff that was used as the primary means to channel their magical energy. Not only was it their "spellbook", used for storing their magical energies so that their body could be spared the immense trauma of channeling arcane energies, but the staff itself could be used 1/round to pick up ambient magical energies in the caster's area for a single arcane bolt (1d6+1 dmg/successful ranged touch attack). It worked nicely and made the caster much more engaged at lower levels when he would otherwise be waiting for the next rest phase. Later I also gave the staff prestidigitation 3/day. That one only got tested for two sessions but was useful and not overpowered during that time. YMMV.

[papercut]

Breakdaddy wrote:
It is just fine, and we playtested it for a while in a manner. I gave casters a staff that was used as the primary means to channel their magical energy. Not only was it their "spellbook", used for storing their magical energies so that their body could be spared the immense trauma of channeling arcane energies, but the staff itself could be used 1/round to pick up ambient magical energies in the caster's area for a single arcane bolt (1d6+1 dmg/successful ranged touch attack). It worked nicely and made the caster much more engaged at lower levels when he would otherwise be waiting for the next rest phase. Later I also gave the staff prestidigitation 3/day. That one only got tested for two sessions but was useful and not overpowered during that time. YMMV.

Sounds great. I think I'll go with limited spells then but some sort of unlimited 1d6 type of deal (ie dagger). One thing that got my younger group bogged down was keeping track of spells while also having limited options (we switched to 4e, and they like it, but it is a different kind of experience, more cool, but less joyous fun). I like the idea of unlimited cheepie blast plus spell slots or some kind of combat spells/noncombat ritual setup.
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[anglefish]

To be on the safe side, I'd add a Int (PC class)/Mental (Monster) Savings Throw.

Fluff:

It's a minor magic effect, so it should be easily shrugged off by those with arcane power or quick wits. It should also be a bigger danger to minions and thugs as compared to the Big Bad.

Mechanics:

This in effect would be a reverse "skill check" to balance out the unlimited usage.

Customization:

- For lower power games, you could also let SR affect the spell as well.

- For higher power games, you could let the spell scale. 1d6 after 6th level and 1d8 at 12th.

[boxcornersdiety]

For Orisons, would the # of spells per day simply indicate how many different Orisons can be 'known' on a given day?

[CharlieRock]

Fighters should not play wizards.

If a player wants to play a character that allows them to roll dice every round of combat and "contribute" by the only way they know how ... inflicting straight damage, then they should play a fighter. That's what a fighter does. Attacks every round until the fighting is over.

A wizard studies the battle as it unfolds and brings out a favorable outcome with judicious use of magical power. Not blazing away like Johnny Storm The Human Torch. If the player wants to do his Contribution by Damage from a distance let them play a bow-shooter, not a spell-caster.

Do whatever it takes to have fun. If that means altering the core tenets of a genre by allowing endless blaster power to first level mages, so be it. But as a CK I would inform a player that is rolling up a wizard that there will be times when they will not be rolling the dice to-hit or inflict damage. That they may have to concentrate their awareness to other fields of aid for the team. And if they are not wanting to play someone who is not the center of the fighting action then they should consider playing a Fighter ... to become the center of the fighting action.

To emphasis this point: If a player means to contribute aid to the party mainly by inflicting damage on a regular (i.e. every round) basis they should be playing a Fighter-ish character.

I don't have fun altering basic tenets of my own self-percieved "genre" to accommodate a player that wants to play a Saturday Morning Action Hour Wizard.

P.S. Not that I mind Saturday Morning Action Hour type wizards. I play one in our Mutants & Masterminds game. Just not in my C&C. It would be like adding salt to my morning cereal. Time and place for everything and whatnot.
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