Hi, I've been thinking of adding a rule to C&C that I enjoyed while playing Savage Worlds: open-ended damage rolls. In the case of C&C, these would only apply to non-magical, physical damage (balancing issue, spellcasters are powerful enough as is). In addition, I'm thinking of importing another house rule. A weapon damage roll is equal to the HD of your character class, i.e. a thief (d6) does d6 damage whether he's using a dagger or a great-sword (though the DM might rule that the thief could not even use the greatsword). In order to make two-handed weapons worth it, they get a +2 damage bonus. A 3rd houserule: a critical hit (a natural 20) means that the damage roll does maximum damage, thus allowing another damage roll.
Any thoughts?
More deadlier combat
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rabindranath72
- Lore Drake
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Re: More deadlier combat
Vicar In A Tutu wrote:
Hi, I've been thinking of adding a rule to C&C that I enjoyed while playing Savage Worlds: open-ended damage rolls. In the case of C&C, these would only apply to non-magical, physical damage (balancing issue, spellcasters are powerful enough as is). In addition, I'm thinking of importing another house rule. A weapon damage roll is equal to the HD of your character class, i.e. a thief (d6) does d6 damage whether he's using a dagger or a great-sword (though the DM might rule that the thief could not even use the greatsword). In order to make two-handed weapons worth it, they get a +2 damage bonus. A 3rd houserule: a critical hit (a natural 20) means that the damage roll does maximum damage, thus allowing another damage roll.
Any thoughts?
Personally, I do not like assimilating damage to HD. The BtH gives enough differentiation: a class with an higher BtH has an higher probability of hitting, and therefore of dealing more damage.
Open-ended damage may be "dangerous" if it is tied to single results on the damage rolls; it may lead to absurdities like a dagger inflicting more damage than a sword, if the rule is something like: whenever you roll maximum, you can reroll (since the probability of getting a 4 on d4 is double the probability of getting an 8 on d8).
It may be worth using if applied only to some weapons. For example, I used this rule when applied to quarrels and arrows.
A good rule is to put something like a "shock value" (e.g. half Con) as a threshold on damage. Every time a character is inflicted more than half-Con, he may pass out (or may suffer additional damage).
Cheers,
Antonio
Or, one can rule something something simple, such as:
Each point of damage represents x% of being critical. A critical hit deals additional damage. Additional damage cumulatively halves the chance for inflicting additional damage. x% = 5%. This is exlcusive of strength and magic adjustments, which are added after determing the total of base and additional damage.
Example, a two-handed sword deals 2d6. If the damage is average, it will be 7, which is a 35% of being critical. If the % is made, an additional 2d6 is rolled, with, let's say a 5 rolled... this ordinarily a 25%, but because it is the "additional" it only has a 12% of being critical again, which is failed. This gives 12 points, further modified by Strength, abilities, and magic.
In this way, BtH increases the chance of inflicting critical injuries, and weapons that have the potential for mass damage have greater odds of scoring criticals... though, the damage dealt is still within "normal" ranges.
For weapons that have a greater critical scheme, such as arrows or crossbows, simply have a base of 10%, with each point of damage adding 5%. No need to have the weapon inflict a higher die type this way.
Forgot to add: if you wish to use the natural 20 = critical rule, that can be done. Simply have the base % of critical incresse by 20%, with each point rolled the same, so that, for example, an attack that rolled a natural 20 and dealt 6 points of damage has a 50% of doing additional damage.
Granted... it is simple in practice, though it does require more rolling, and is seemingly complex.
Each point of damage represents x% of being critical. A critical hit deals additional damage. Additional damage cumulatively halves the chance for inflicting additional damage. x% = 5%. This is exlcusive of strength and magic adjustments, which are added after determing the total of base and additional damage.
Example, a two-handed sword deals 2d6. If the damage is average, it will be 7, which is a 35% of being critical. If the % is made, an additional 2d6 is rolled, with, let's say a 5 rolled... this ordinarily a 25%, but because it is the "additional" it only has a 12% of being critical again, which is failed. This gives 12 points, further modified by Strength, abilities, and magic.
In this way, BtH increases the chance of inflicting critical injuries, and weapons that have the potential for mass damage have greater odds of scoring criticals... though, the damage dealt is still within "normal" ranges.
For weapons that have a greater critical scheme, such as arrows or crossbows, simply have a base of 10%, with each point of damage adding 5%. No need to have the weapon inflict a higher die type this way.
Forgot to add: if you wish to use the natural 20 = critical rule, that can be done. Simply have the base % of critical incresse by 20%, with each point rolled the same, so that, for example, an attack that rolled a natural 20 and dealt 6 points of damage has a 50% of doing additional damage.
Granted... it is simple in practice, though it does require more rolling, and is seemingly complex.
Here's a way to do it, stolen from WFRP.
If you're using variable weapon damage (i.e. some weapons do 1d8, others do 1d6, etc), convert the weapon damage as follows:
1d4 damage becomes 1d6-1
1d6 damage stays the same
1d8 damage becomes 1d6+1
1d10 damage becomes 1d6+2
1d12 or 2d6 damage becomes 1d6+3, etc
If you're basing damage on Hit Die, use the same figures above. Of course, you can adjust the bonuses or penalties as you desire. The main thing, though, is that everyone is rolling a d6 for damage, so open-ended rolling is fair - daggers won't statistically do more damage than two-handed axes.
If you're using variable weapon damage (i.e. some weapons do 1d8, others do 1d6, etc), convert the weapon damage as follows:
1d4 damage becomes 1d6-1
1d6 damage stays the same
1d8 damage becomes 1d6+1
1d10 damage becomes 1d6+2
1d12 or 2d6 damage becomes 1d6+3, etc
If you're basing damage on Hit Die, use the same figures above. Of course, you can adjust the bonuses or penalties as you desire. The main thing, though, is that everyone is rolling a d6 for damage, so open-ended rolling is fair - daggers won't statistically do more damage than two-handed axes.
I have found it is easy enough to kill PC's as it is. I like them to live long enough to accomplish what I have planned out for them, so I don't need to add more ways to kill them and disrupt the campaign "story" more than it already has been with two PC deaths.
Maybe once the characters reach 9th/10th level part of their class powers will be the ability to do criticals. At least then it will be eaiser for them to get Raise Deads, as long as it doesn't end up being a TPK.
So until then the only crit I am using is on a nat 20 they get an extra free attack attempt.
Maybe once the characters reach 9th/10th level part of their class powers will be the ability to do criticals. At least then it will be eaiser for them to get Raise Deads, as long as it doesn't end up being a TPK.
So until then the only crit I am using is on a nat 20 they get an extra free attack attempt.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
I thought about tying damage to class, but in the end I decided against it. The I like the idea of open ended damage, but see see the problem of smaller weapons having the greater chance of doing this. I may work the open ended damage into my critical hit rules, allowing open ended damage only on a natural 20.
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I have all players roll 1d10 with their damage rolls. If they get a 10, then roll damage again and add. Roll control dice again with it. Exploding damage. I do not ahve critical hits in my campaign, just exploding damage.
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Scurvy_Platypus
- Ungern
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I'm going with a Class based damage system.
d4 Wizards/casters
d6 Clerics/Thieves/etc
d8 Rangers/"generic fighting types"
d10 Fighters
I considered doing a Weapon Type based damage, but decided to go Class based instead. One funky idea is to use a Weapon Type damage mechanic, but have the number of dice rolled be dependent on the class' "native" fighting ability. Player keeps the best die rolled. If a Weapon Type does multiple dice damage, player keeps the highest, and next highest..
Example: 1 hand swords do d6 Damage.
Casters roll 1d6 and that's it.
Clerics/Thieves roll 2 dice, and pick whichever is better.
Fighting classes roll 3 dice, and pick the best one.
Example: 2 handed anime sized battleax of the North does 2d10
Casters roll 2d10 and that's it.
Clerics/Thieves roll 3 dice, and pick whichever two are better.
Fighting classes roll 4 dice, and pick whichever two are better.
There's a few different variants you can do, depending on what you feel like. Personally I think it's a bit too fiddly, but it's an idea for those that are looking for something different.
I like the idea of Critical hits. Going with the usual Natural 20 = critical hit. Right now it's setup as roll damage+STR bonus, multiply total x2. Exploding damage dice are another alternative, but I personally wouldn't use critical hits and exploding damage dice together. From my perspective, when a damage dice does "explode" that explosion is representing a critical hit.
Given that I'm doing Class based damage, an exploding system doesn't really match for how I want combat going. I don't want a Caster type having a 25% chance to score a critical hit in every combat, while the fighting types get left out.
Could always do something like every 4 BAB = 1 less needed to crit on the d20. So if you've got a +12 BAB, you'll need a natural 18 or higher to crit. Some might think it excessive, but it's the one I'm going to try if everyone wants to see more criticals in the game.
d4 Wizards/casters
d6 Clerics/Thieves/etc
d8 Rangers/"generic fighting types"
d10 Fighters
I considered doing a Weapon Type based damage, but decided to go Class based instead. One funky idea is to use a Weapon Type damage mechanic, but have the number of dice rolled be dependent on the class' "native" fighting ability. Player keeps the best die rolled. If a Weapon Type does multiple dice damage, player keeps the highest, and next highest..
Example: 1 hand swords do d6 Damage.
Casters roll 1d6 and that's it.
Clerics/Thieves roll 2 dice, and pick whichever is better.
Fighting classes roll 3 dice, and pick the best one.
Example: 2 handed anime sized battleax of the North does 2d10
Casters roll 2d10 and that's it.
Clerics/Thieves roll 3 dice, and pick whichever two are better.
Fighting classes roll 4 dice, and pick whichever two are better.
There's a few different variants you can do, depending on what you feel like. Personally I think it's a bit too fiddly, but it's an idea for those that are looking for something different.
I like the idea of Critical hits. Going with the usual Natural 20 = critical hit. Right now it's setup as roll damage+STR bonus, multiply total x2. Exploding damage dice are another alternative, but I personally wouldn't use critical hits and exploding damage dice together. From my perspective, when a damage dice does "explode" that explosion is representing a critical hit.
Given that I'm doing Class based damage, an exploding system doesn't really match for how I want combat going. I don't want a Caster type having a 25% chance to score a critical hit in every combat, while the fighting types get left out.
Could always do something like every 4 BAB = 1 less needed to crit on the d20. So if you've got a +12 BAB, you'll need a natural 18 or higher to crit. Some might think it excessive, but it's the one I'm going to try if everyone wants to see more criticals in the game.
Something I thought might work, which is a house rule I made up for older editions of D&D and Gamma World 1st ed.: instead of adding your STR bonus to damage, you add the amount by which you hit... so if you rolled 5 over the number needed to hit, you do +5 damage.
This means that even a dagger is dangerous to an unarmored foe (as it should be)... and that armor acts as DR (damage reduction) since an increase in AC decreases the damage done.
Naturally, this would lead to a bloodier combat system. Bloody battles please Korgoth.
This means that even a dagger is dangerous to an unarmored foe (as it should be)... and that armor acts as DR (damage reduction) since an increase in AC decreases the damage done.
Naturally, this would lead to a bloodier combat system. Bloody battles please Korgoth.
I use open-ended damage for all mechanical missile weapons to make bows and the like the feared weapons they should be. I just allow another damage die to be rolled if max damage is rolled on the first (or last).
If two max damage results are rolled not only is a third rolled but a con save is made or the target dies. Only one such save can be generated per attack no matter how many damage dice end up being rolled. Works well in my games. Now, when a band of goblins is seen on a rise drawing back their little short bows the characters duck and cover quick!
If two max damage results are rolled not only is a third rolled but a con save is made or the target dies. Only one such save can be generated per attack no matter how many damage dice end up being rolled. Works well in my games. Now, when a band of goblins is seen on a rise drawing back their little short bows the characters duck and cover quick!
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rabindranath72
- Lore Drake
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- Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:00 am
I have been using these rules in my last games:
- A natural 20 which hits is a critical
- depending on the maximum damage of the weapon, a multiplier to damage is applied (much like in 3.x, but without the need to have a separate stat for each weapon
max damage up to 6-> X2
max damage up to 10-> X3
max damage up to 12-> X4
Creatures always apply the X2 critical, if they are Large, X3
It is quite simple, effective and works really well without slowing things down.
Cheers,
Antonio
- A natural 20 which hits is a critical
- depending on the maximum damage of the weapon, a multiplier to damage is applied (much like in 3.x, but without the need to have a separate stat for each weapon
max damage up to 6-> X2
max damage up to 10-> X3
max damage up to 12-> X4
Creatures always apply the X2 critical, if they are Large, X3
It is quite simple, effective and works really well without slowing things down.
Cheers,
Antonio
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Scurvy_Platypus
- Ungern
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:00 am
Another thing that just occured to me while rereading this thread. I'm thinking it's a variation on the Arduin method of hitpoints, but I'm not sure as my books are at home and I'm at work.
Your Con score = your hitpoints.
If you have Con as a prime add 6 more.
When leveling, instead of rolling a die to determine your additional hitpoints, use the BaB chart. Each +1 BaB = 1 Hitpoint.
For example, a level 10 Fighter with an 18 Con, and Con as a Prime will have: 18 (for Con)+6 (Con Prime) +10 (for a +10 BaB) = 34 hitpoints.
If that's _too_ deadly, you could always use the class HD as an additional part. Just change it from a die type to number of additional hitpoints. Meaning d10 = 10 HP, d4 = 4hp. So that 10th level figher from above would have a total of 44 hitpoints.
I personally wouldn't enjoy playing in a game that deadly, unless it was some sort of specific genre/setting thing. Something like a Warhammer Fantasy inspired game perhaps.
Your Con score = your hitpoints.
If you have Con as a prime add 6 more.
When leveling, instead of rolling a die to determine your additional hitpoints, use the BaB chart. Each +1 BaB = 1 Hitpoint.
For example, a level 10 Fighter with an 18 Con, and Con as a Prime will have: 18 (for Con)+6 (Con Prime) +10 (for a +10 BaB) = 34 hitpoints.
If that's _too_ deadly, you could always use the class HD as an additional part. Just change it from a die type to number of additional hitpoints. Meaning d10 = 10 HP, d4 = 4hp. So that 10th level figher from above would have a total of 44 hitpoints.
I personally wouldn't enjoy playing in a game that deadly, unless it was some sort of specific genre/setting thing. Something like a Warhammer Fantasy inspired game perhaps.
Well it is certainly a reason for someone to finally play a barbarian in C&C! on the otherhand, the monk's punch damage is suddenly really hideous. And when they get that second attack...
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Vicar In A Tutu
- Mist Elf
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Thanks for the ideas and suggestions, I appreciate it. Lately I've found myself drifting away from the thought of open-ended damage rolls, however I still like class-based damage (based on HD). However, I still wanted there to be a noticable difference between using a one-handed weapon (along with a shield), using a weapon two-handed and using a "small" weapon. I came up with these rules, please let me know what you think:
With two-handed weapons, the damage is increased to the next die type. For example, if a Fighter (d10 HD) wields a greatsword, he deals 1d12 damage. If a thief (d6 HD) wields a greataxe, he deals 1d8 damage. A shortbow is considered a one-handed weapon, a longbow is considered a two-handed weapon for this purpose. Small weapons (dagger, shortsword) reduce the wielders damage by 1 step, but the wielder can choose to use Dexterity bonus instead of Strength bonus as the bonus to hit (note that the Strength modifier in any case determines damage bonus).
With two-handed weapons, the damage is increased to the next die type. For example, if a Fighter (d10 HD) wields a greatsword, he deals 1d12 damage. If a thief (d6 HD) wields a greataxe, he deals 1d8 damage. A shortbow is considered a one-handed weapon, a longbow is considered a two-handed weapon for this purpose. Small weapons (dagger, shortsword) reduce the wielders damage by 1 step, but the wielder can choose to use Dexterity bonus instead of Strength bonus as the bonus to hit (note that the Strength modifier in any case determines damage bonus).
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slimykuotoan
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Re: More deadlier combat
I use an old Dragon Magazine 'Good Hits and Bad Misses' chart which really increases the danger component of my games.
For crying out loud. Do your best with the rolls the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan
Re: More deadlier combat
I've got old Arms law critical hits type A to E and their fumbles... sometime fun, but not always. I let the PC decide, 2x what they roll or twice the dice, or the charts.
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.
Re: More deadlier combat
Sure, why would a thief do less damage with a dagger than a cleric? And, why have different weapons? Everyone can just carry a dagger and/or a short bow.
Re: More deadlier combat
Wow... quite the thread necro... 14 years.
I've never like class-based damage for weapons, myself. Warrior types will do more damage already due to higher attack bonuses and usually higher strength scores.
If the original intent is to make combat more deadly, i think the simplest way is to reduce hit points. Maybe only half as many after 1st level. Or if you want a really gritty game, no extra hit points after 1st level.
-Fizz
I've never like class-based damage for weapons, myself. Warrior types will do more damage already due to higher attack bonuses and usually higher strength scores.
If the original intent is to make combat more deadly, i think the simplest way is to reduce hit points. Maybe only half as many after 1st level. Or if you want a really gritty game, no extra hit points after 1st level.
-Fizz