Multi Class Rules

Andhaira · Post by **Andhaira** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:12 pm

I hear that the 4th printing has multi class rules. Can anyone comment on them? How is a Fighter/mage multiclass handled? Can they cast spells in armor?

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:35 pm

The multiclass rules, as I understand it (since I am not familiar with AD&D multiclass rules) are very close to AD&D multiclass rules. The XP totals of the two classes are added together, plus a small additional amount of XP to attain new levels of experience. The average of the HD between the multclassed classes are used when determining HD (there is a chart for this). Armor can be worn when spells are cast for multiclass characters. There are 11 "Basic Universal Rules" to multiclassing presented in the PHB1.4. These rules are the governing structure on how to multiclass.

~O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:24 pm

The PHB has two systems for multiclassing, so it depends on which one you go with -- if you opt for the "class-and-a-half" method then what is important is what "order" of classes you have. If you want to be a Fighter-Wizard, you have to designate one of them as the "main" class -- if Wizard is not it, good luck with the armor thing.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

koralas · Post by **koralas** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:17 pm

Andhaira wrote:
I hear that the 4th printing has multi class rules. Can anyone comment on them? How is a Fighter/mage multiclass handled? Can they cast spells in armor?

See here for my description of the multi-classing rules from another thread...
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

K2h2m3 · Post by **K2h2m3** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:52 am

I believe, and anyone feel free to correct me on this, that the base multi-classing rules would allow any mage or illusionist from wearing armor while casting. Obviously providing one of the other classes is allowed armor.

koralas · Post by **koralas** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:58 pm

K2h2m3 wrote:
I believe, and anyone feel free to correct me on this, that the base multi-classing rules would allow any mage or illusionist from wearing armor while casting. Obviously providing one of the other classes is allowed armor.

Yes, the multiclassing rules do permit Wiz's and Ill's can cast in armor in the class and a half method. The "Basic Multiclassing" rules doesn't specifically state that they may cast spells in armor, stating the suffer the penalties listed in the ability. Nowhere in the spell casting descriptions for Wiz and Ill does it mention armor preventing spell casting. Since the multiclass rules are optional, there was no real reason to put rules in to cover mages in armor. I would either use the rules as listed in class and a half, or determine your own rules. Personally, I like some of the really old school stuff that allows elfin chain to be worn while casting. However, I once played in a game where the DM allowed light armor (leather, studded, elfin chain) to be worn even by single class M-U's, any armor heavier could be worn, but only allowed casting of spells without somatic components. This method was quite enjoyable as well.

Really, do what makes sense for your CK and group, after all the game is all about having fun...

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:45 am

koralas wrote:
Nowhere in the spell casting descriptions for Wiz and Ill does it mention armor preventing spell casting.

Just to make sure I follow your thought process on this, Page 9 of the PHB1.4 under Armor states that class abilities cannot be used if the character wears armor they are not proficient in, unless otherwise stated.

Multiclassing rules BUST this rule right in the jewels and straight up say they can.

~O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:48 am

I would limit the armor type that a multi-class F/M could use without impacting abilities such as spell casting. There are some somantic components to spells that are (very likely) flat out impossible to do in some armors like platemail or splint mail...limited range of motion and all that.

And no...that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't be able to wear armor. Merely that some thought needs to be given to what said armor will impact as appropriate.
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

K2h2m3 · Post by **K2h2m3** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:40 am

Well I'm of the mind to let it ride as is. I played an Elf character in Basic Edition D&D/Moldvay bitd and there was really no problem with it. It took me so long to level that every other character was always about three levels above me so it kinda evened out. Don't know if it will work the same in C&C but I'm willing to give it a shot.

koralas · Post by **koralas** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:41 pm

Omote wrote:
Just to make sure I follow your thought process on this, Page 9 of the PHB1.4 under Armor states that class abilities cannot be used if the character wears armor they are not proficient in, unless otherwise stated.

Multiclassing rules BUST this rule right in the jewels and straight up say they can.

~O

Aye, however, in the Basic Universal Multiclassing Rules (BUMR) it does state that multi-class characters can use any armor from the combined classes, but will suffer any penalties mentioned in the class abilities. As such a Cleric/Wizard would be proficient in all armor and shields, and since no where does it state specifically in their spell casting ability description, that Arcane spell casters (or Druids in metal armors) cannot cast in armor, the rule, as written, would allow for the character to cast Arcane (or Druidic) spells while in any kind of armor.

Now the rule you point to on page 9 does say a wizard can not cast in armor, and that can be construed to be a hard and fast rule. In which case, you can then say the BUMR rule is superseded by this (even though it isn't listed in the class abilities section). As such a Wizard combined with any class cannot cast in any kind of armor.

Note that the class and a half has specific rules for casting in armor, depending on which class is the Primary and which is supporting.

Add it all up and what do you have? A gi-normous pile of cheese fries!!!

So what do you do? Simple, each group makes it's final determination and stick with it! Have FUN!

K2h2m3 · Post by **K2h2m3** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:14 pm

This makes me curious as to what the Trolls intent was with this. Please no "do what you want" answers. I do not need or ask for permission to do what I want in my own games. Just curious as to how they play it.

Camazotz · Post by **Camazotz** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:04 am

I'd interpret the rule on page 9 to suggest a single-class wizard who dons armor can't cast spells. But the multi-classing rules are specific to the class abilities, which do not inherently forbid the ability to wear armor and cast spells; the problem is that single-class wizards are not proficient in armor use, so it messes them up, but a fighter/wizard, being proficient in all armor, would not get tripped up when spell-casting. I think the class-and-a-half methodology supports this interpretation, offhand.

So yeah, a fighter/wizard can cast in armor, but a rogue/wizard can only cast in leather armor, basically. And a monk/wizard would be unable to cast spells in any armor at all.
_________________
My web page: Http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/ancientworlds

Zodiac Gods Publishing:
http://www.lulu.com/camazotz

Home of Keepers of Lingusia, a homebrew old-school setting for use with C&C

PeelSeel2 · Post by **PeelSeel2** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:52 pm

Arcane creations has the second method of Multi-clssing on their website here:
http://www.arcanacreations.com/downloads.html
_________________
Labor to keep alive in your breast that little spark of celestial fire called conscience.

-George Washington

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:33 pm

PeelSeel2 wrote:
Arcane creations has the second method of Multi-clssing on their website here:
http://www.arcanacreations.com/downloads.html

The method posted here was developed back in 2006. That said, both are extremely similar but have a couple of differences. One being the armor restrictions -- a multiclassed characters receives the 'worse' armor restrictions of his classes.

M
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

K2h2m3 · Post by **K2h2m3** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:36 pm

That's the way it is in the CZ series too. I had kind of half expected it to be the same in the PH.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:29 pm

K2h2m3 wrote:
That's the way it is in the CZ series too. I had kind of half expected it to be the same in the PH.

When I drafted those up, I felt that a few of the limiting factors from CZ and AD&D fit the style and that it was straight forward. I also think it did help balance it a bit more. A Fighter / Wizard, though better able to defend himself, is still a 'soft' target.
The only exception I allow in terms of armor for this sort of class combination is Elven Chain -- something extremely rare in my campaign.

M
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

K2h2m3 · Post by **K2h2m3** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:33 am

Well right there you mention the base of the discussion. In AD&D elves could wear metal armor and still cast. Didn't really make much of a difference as you split xp to both classes meaning that in comparison the other characters would be roughly twice the level you had in a single class. The C&C rules take this even further as you have get the xp for all your classes at once to go up a level plus the added xp per level. The only true difference between this and the old AD&D is that any race can do it so it will be more common.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:39 pm

K2h2m3 wrote:
Well right there you mention the base of the discussion. In AD&D elves could wear metal armor and still cast. Didn't really make much of a difference as you split xp to both classes meaning that in comparison the other characters would be roughly twice the level you had in a single class. The C&C rules take this even further as you have get the xp for all your classes at once to go up a level plus the added xp per level. The only true difference between this and the old AD&D is that any race can do it so it will be more common.

The reason I make the exception for the Elven Chain is because of how that item is set up. If you read the item description: It does not impede movement and has an EV of zero when worn. Basically like regular clothes.

In AD&D (2nd Edition), you are correct if you say that an ELVEN Fighter / Mage could wear ELVEN CHAIN without restriction. However if you were a pure Elven Mage, you were still shit of out luck. An Elven Fighter / Mage couldn't wear regular armor either. It is this special item (Elven Chain) which proves to be the exception in this case -- provided that one of the base classes has knowledge of this sort of armor (a mail shirt).

On the other hand, the multiclass rules in the PHB does shake things up a bit but I would not go this direction in my game. I consider all other armor to be 'restrictive' enough to impede spellcasting.

M
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:41 pm

Correct, but... In AD&D first edition fighter/magicians could wear any armour and still cast spells.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

ChaosImp · Post by **ChaosImp** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:07 pm

I believe it was in basic and expert where Elves could wear armour as the race was a class, I know in 1st Ed that only elven fighter/mages could wear elven chain and still cast spells.

IMP
_________________
"Vae, p**o deus fio:"

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:34 pm

ChaosImp wrote:
I believe it was in basic and expert where Elves could wear armour as the race was a class, I know in 1st Ed that only elven fighter/mages could wear elven chain and still cast spells.

Whilst you are correct that in B/X and BECMI elves can wear armour and cast spells because they are always a combined class, you are wrong in your second assertion that only an elf fighter/magician can wear elvish mail (see UA, p. 75). Furthermore, the elf fighter/magician is not restricted to elvish mail in first edition; see the first edition PHB, pp. 32-3, the Multi Classed Character for a full explanation. In second edition the rules were changed so that only elvish mail could be worn by such characters whilst casting spells, so it was likely a common house rule before that.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

K2h2m3 · Post by **K2h2m3** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:35 pm

Matthew beat me to it and hit the nail right on the head.

K2h2m3 · Post by **K2h2m3** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:39 pm

Any opinions or observances on the class and half rules? I'm starting to think they are not worth the effort if the multi-class rules are used.

Dr. Halflight · Post by **Dr. Halflight** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:38 pm

I want to make sure I'm reading the rules for the Class & a Half section correctly.

If I have a Wizard Primary & say a Fighter Secondary, I can wear full armor & cast any spell with a penalty of the AC Bonus?

But if I have a Fighter Primary & a Wizard Secondary, I cannot cat a spell with a Saving Throw or that does Damage while wearing armor?

My book is at home, I'm going from memory.

K2h2m3 · Post by **K2h2m3** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:27 am

Sounds right to me.

jaguar451 · Post by **jaguar451** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:50 am

And I've read that some house-rule it to reverse those rules....

Dr. Halflight · Post by **Dr. Halflight** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:08 am

K2h2m3 wrote:
Sounds right to me.

I'm on the fence, but leaning toward opposite camp. I was curious about your reasoning? You might be able to sell me.

K2h2m3 · Post by **K2h2m3** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:38 pm

Seems kinda simple to me but here goes. In the first case wizard is the primary class so the character is able to cast ALL spells but at a distinct disadvantage due to any armor worn. In the second case wizard is not the primary class and therefore the character may cast SOME spells as long as they are not damaging or have a saving throw limiting the list to a great degree.

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:25 am

Is the thinking behind this that if you're primarily a Fighter with a bit of magic, you ought to be damaging enemies with your sword and limit your spells to buffs and general utility stuff instead of using it to damage and ensorcel people? Otherwise you'd expect it to be the other way round...

K2h2m3 · Post by **K2h2m3** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:49 pm

Good question and one that I don't really know the answer to. I had envisioned it that as the character is primarily a fighter he/she does not have the expertise to cast most spells in cumbersome armor.

Troll Lord Games

Multi Class Rules

Multi Class Rules

Re: Multi Class Rules