How would one make a dexterity-based fighter in C&C?
How would one make a dexterity-based fighter in C&C?
In newer editions of D&D, there is a feat called "Weapon Finesse" that allows one to use Dex instead of Str to add to their attack roll. How would you handle this in C&C since it doesn't have feats/talents if you wanted to make a swashbuckler character for instance? Would you just let the person swap Dex for Str? I'd rather not have to implement a feat/talent system to the game just to do that simple thing. Suggestions? Thanks in advance!
Your thoughts are exactly right - that is how I would do it in my game as well.
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Taranthyll
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You could allow the fighter to substitute his Dexterity modifier for his Strength modifier when using finesse weapons like rapiers and such.
Also, since Dexterity is likely to be a prime for this type of character you could allow him to make all sorts of flashy acrobatic maneuvers with a successful SIEGE check in combat - this captures the feel of the swashbuckling finesse fighter and allows you to emulate all of the 3rd edition options without having a cumbersome feat system to lug around.
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Also, since Dexterity is likely to be a prime for this type of character you could allow him to make all sorts of flashy acrobatic maneuvers with a successful SIEGE check in combat - this captures the feel of the swashbuckling finesse fighter and allows you to emulate all of the 3rd edition options without having a cumbersome feat system to lug around.
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moriarty777
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Yep... Dex as Prime would do the trick. No reason why you couldn't substitute the Dex modifier 'to hit' with certain weapons.
Complete agreement here.
M
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Complete agreement here.
M
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Below is another of the classes I am working on converting from old house rules, a few others have been presented here already. I am also working on a fanzine where these will be published as well. Granted this goes beyond just a basic Dex prime Fighter, but thought I put it out for comments.
The Duelist (Dex)
The duelist is a warrior that relies on speed, agility, and often no small amounts of loud and boisterous behavior. Duelists have been called by many names such as mercenary, swashbuckler, daredevil, pirate, and many more. Duelists can be great heroes, fighting for the heart of a lady, the preservation of society, or dastardly villains working for personal gain or power. Duelists can be found in most any society, and are oft loved or reviled, and sometimes even both by the same people at the same time. They may be from any layer of society, the most noble of houses to the urchins barely eking out survival on the streets of large cities, though it seems the majority come from the downtrodden masses.
The Duelist prefers light weaponry and little or no armor. They tend to be acrobatic, and mouthy when facing enemies. Big movements, and many flourishes and tricks, almost like a dance in combat, all are trademarks of these warriors, as such, heavy weapons and armor are far to restrictive.
Looking back to the movies, there are many heroic examples. Erol Flynn's Robin Hood, Captain Blood, George Armstrong Custer (from They Died With Their Boots On), and many more. Tyrone Power as Captain Jamie Waring (The Black Swan), Don Diego Vega AKA Zorro (The Mark of Zorro), among others. More modern examples include Orlando Blume as Will Turner and Jonny Depps Captain Jack Sparrow from the Pirates of the Caribbean series of movies. The many incarnations of the Three Musketeers would be another example of swashbuckling Duelists.
Still following the movies, the anti-heroes of those movies provide examples of the darker side of the Duelists. From Pirates of the Caribbean you have Hector Barbarossa and Davy Jones. The Adventures of Robin Hood brings us Guy of Gisborne, and The Mark of Zorro Captain Pasqualle both of these played by Basil Rathbone.
Abilities
Accute Awarness (Wis): The Duelist tends to be a bit of a paranoid personality. As such, they are surprised less often than others. This sixth sense does not grant them details of what is going on around them, but puts them on guard.
This ability manifests itself in many ways. For example, a rogue trying to pick the pocket of a Duelist will have the challenge rating increased, not only by the level of the character, but also by the Wisdom modifier of the Duelist. When surprised in combat related situations, the Duelist, on making a successful check, may act in the surprise round, after all opponents have taken their actions.
Agile Assault: When fighting in light armor (as detailed in Nimble Defense), and wielding light weapons, the character can benefit from their speed and agility when attacking their opponents. Light weapons include those that may be wielded with one hand, and weigh equal to or less than 6lbs.
Agile Assault allows the Duelist to use their DEX adjustment rather than STR when attacking in close combat, though STR still modifies damage rolls.
Improved Initiative: Duelists react to situations extremely quickly. They gain a +1 on initiative rolls.
Nimble Defense: Duelists are exceptionally agile, and their unique style of combat tends to keep their opponents off balance and allows the Duelist to dodge blows that might otherwise have struck home. Since this ability requires freedom of movement, it may only be attempted when wearing no, or light, flexible armors. Such armor includes Padded Armor, Leather Coats, Leather Armor, Ring Mail, Studded Leather, Laminar Leather and Chain Shirts. Further Elven Chain may be worn freely as if clad in no armor. To keep with the feel of the class, it is highly recommended that the rules for Silk Shirts from the Castelan's Guide to Arms and Armor be utilized... The poofy shirt!
At 1st level, when clad in any of the light armors, the Duelist gains +1 to their AC. At 3rd level, this bonus improves to +2 when clad in no armor. At 6th level the bonus is +3 in no armor, and +2 for armor weighing 10lbs or less. At 9th level, this improves further to +4/no armor, +3/10lbs and +2 at 15lbs or less. Finally at 12th level +5/no armor, +4/10bls, +3/15lbs, +2/20lbs.
Taunt Foe (Int): Being loud and boisterous, these characters try to enrage, invoke fear, or just annoy their opponents. Using hand gestures, making faces, and verbal assaults, they can affect the actions of their opponent. This does not always work for the benefit of the Duelist, and can put them into precarious positions at times. The taunter must speak a common language with the foe, or the challenge level can be effected dramatically. And of course this ability may only be used on creatures that can understand the meaning of the Duelist. Further, the level/HD of the taunted creature is a negative modifier to the taunt check.
When taunting an opponent, the character may make a single attack with their primary weapon, or a movement action. A successful check causes the creature affected to suffer a penalty equal to the characters Int modifier on their AC, rolls to hit, saving throws, and skill checks during their next combat action. However, should the creature strike the Duelist still, the fury of the assault grants them a damage bonus of 1d3+1.
Resist Fear: Full of braggadocio, the Duelist generally laughs in the face of danger. As such, they receive a +2 bonus on all fear checks starting at 2nd level.
Dual Wield: At 3rd level, a Duelist opting to wield two weapons suffers only -2 on their primary hand, and -3 on their off-hand. At 6th level this penalty is reduced further to -1/-2, and at 10th level the Duelist suffers no penalties to hit with either hand.
Flourish (Dex): Starting at 5th level, while attacking an opponent, the Duelist may attempt to strike multiple times with their primary weapon by performing a seemingly wild are exceptionally graceful attack. This ability has the same restrictions as does agile assault in regards to armor and weapons that may be utilized.
While performing a flourish, the Duelist gains one additional attack with their primary weapon. However, they tend to over reach, and leave themselves exposed. During a flourish, if the Dex check is failed, the character is treated as if prone, no bonuses are applied to their AC either from Dex or from Nimble Defense.
Avoid Death Blow (Con): A blow that would slay the Duelist can be avoided by rolling out of the way, parrying, ducking under a table, etc. The character digs deep to find the strength to avoid a blow that would surely strike it down. The character may use this ability only when clad in light armor, but may be wielding any weapon.
At the 9th level, the character can attempt this ability once per day. Once the attack that would deal the blow has been struck, and damage determined enough to bring the character to 0 or less HP, the character must attempt to use this ability. If successful, the character is brought down to 1HP, and can move 5xCon modifier feet away from the foe that would strike the blow.
This ability may not be used if the character had already attempted a dodge or evade action. However, if the Duelist was already attempting to disengage from combat, the character will receive a bonus to their Avoid Death Blow roll equal to their Dex modifier, this is in addition to the Con modifier normally applied.
Prime Attribute: Dexterity
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d8
Weapons: Any (see restrictions in Abilities)
Armor: Any (see restrictions in Abilities)
Abilities: Acute Awarness, Agile Assault, Improved Initiative, Nimble Defense, Taunt Foe, Resist Fear, Dual Wield, Flourish, Avoid Death Blow
Level....HD.......BtH........EPP
...1.......d8.........0...............0
...2.......d8.......+1.........2,501
...3.......d8.......+2.........5,501
...4.......d8.......+3.......11,001
...5.......d8.......+4.......22,001
...6.......d8.......+5.......45,001
...7.......d8.......+6.......90,001
...8.......d8.......+7......160,001
...9.......d8.......+8......330,001
.10.......d8.......+9......600,001
.11...+4 HP....+10......875,001
.12...+4 HP....+11...1,150,001
13+ 275,001 per level
The Duelist (Dex)
The duelist is a warrior that relies on speed, agility, and often no small amounts of loud and boisterous behavior. Duelists have been called by many names such as mercenary, swashbuckler, daredevil, pirate, and many more. Duelists can be great heroes, fighting for the heart of a lady, the preservation of society, or dastardly villains working for personal gain or power. Duelists can be found in most any society, and are oft loved or reviled, and sometimes even both by the same people at the same time. They may be from any layer of society, the most noble of houses to the urchins barely eking out survival on the streets of large cities, though it seems the majority come from the downtrodden masses.
The Duelist prefers light weaponry and little or no armor. They tend to be acrobatic, and mouthy when facing enemies. Big movements, and many flourishes and tricks, almost like a dance in combat, all are trademarks of these warriors, as such, heavy weapons and armor are far to restrictive.
Looking back to the movies, there are many heroic examples. Erol Flynn's Robin Hood, Captain Blood, George Armstrong Custer (from They Died With Their Boots On), and many more. Tyrone Power as Captain Jamie Waring (The Black Swan), Don Diego Vega AKA Zorro (The Mark of Zorro), among others. More modern examples include Orlando Blume as Will Turner and Jonny Depps Captain Jack Sparrow from the Pirates of the Caribbean series of movies. The many incarnations of the Three Musketeers would be another example of swashbuckling Duelists.
Still following the movies, the anti-heroes of those movies provide examples of the darker side of the Duelists. From Pirates of the Caribbean you have Hector Barbarossa and Davy Jones. The Adventures of Robin Hood brings us Guy of Gisborne, and The Mark of Zorro Captain Pasqualle both of these played by Basil Rathbone.
Abilities
Accute Awarness (Wis): The Duelist tends to be a bit of a paranoid personality. As such, they are surprised less often than others. This sixth sense does not grant them details of what is going on around them, but puts them on guard.
This ability manifests itself in many ways. For example, a rogue trying to pick the pocket of a Duelist will have the challenge rating increased, not only by the level of the character, but also by the Wisdom modifier of the Duelist. When surprised in combat related situations, the Duelist, on making a successful check, may act in the surprise round, after all opponents have taken their actions.
Agile Assault: When fighting in light armor (as detailed in Nimble Defense), and wielding light weapons, the character can benefit from their speed and agility when attacking their opponents. Light weapons include those that may be wielded with one hand, and weigh equal to or less than 6lbs.
Agile Assault allows the Duelist to use their DEX adjustment rather than STR when attacking in close combat, though STR still modifies damage rolls.
Improved Initiative: Duelists react to situations extremely quickly. They gain a +1 on initiative rolls.
Nimble Defense: Duelists are exceptionally agile, and their unique style of combat tends to keep their opponents off balance and allows the Duelist to dodge blows that might otherwise have struck home. Since this ability requires freedom of movement, it may only be attempted when wearing no, or light, flexible armors. Such armor includes Padded Armor, Leather Coats, Leather Armor, Ring Mail, Studded Leather, Laminar Leather and Chain Shirts. Further Elven Chain may be worn freely as if clad in no armor. To keep with the feel of the class, it is highly recommended that the rules for Silk Shirts from the Castelan's Guide to Arms and Armor be utilized... The poofy shirt!
At 1st level, when clad in any of the light armors, the Duelist gains +1 to their AC. At 3rd level, this bonus improves to +2 when clad in no armor. At 6th level the bonus is +3 in no armor, and +2 for armor weighing 10lbs or less. At 9th level, this improves further to +4/no armor, +3/10lbs and +2 at 15lbs or less. Finally at 12th level +5/no armor, +4/10bls, +3/15lbs, +2/20lbs.
Taunt Foe (Int): Being loud and boisterous, these characters try to enrage, invoke fear, or just annoy their opponents. Using hand gestures, making faces, and verbal assaults, they can affect the actions of their opponent. This does not always work for the benefit of the Duelist, and can put them into precarious positions at times. The taunter must speak a common language with the foe, or the challenge level can be effected dramatically. And of course this ability may only be used on creatures that can understand the meaning of the Duelist. Further, the level/HD of the taunted creature is a negative modifier to the taunt check.
When taunting an opponent, the character may make a single attack with their primary weapon, or a movement action. A successful check causes the creature affected to suffer a penalty equal to the characters Int modifier on their AC, rolls to hit, saving throws, and skill checks during their next combat action. However, should the creature strike the Duelist still, the fury of the assault grants them a damage bonus of 1d3+1.
Resist Fear: Full of braggadocio, the Duelist generally laughs in the face of danger. As such, they receive a +2 bonus on all fear checks starting at 2nd level.
Dual Wield: At 3rd level, a Duelist opting to wield two weapons suffers only -2 on their primary hand, and -3 on their off-hand. At 6th level this penalty is reduced further to -1/-2, and at 10th level the Duelist suffers no penalties to hit with either hand.
Flourish (Dex): Starting at 5th level, while attacking an opponent, the Duelist may attempt to strike multiple times with their primary weapon by performing a seemingly wild are exceptionally graceful attack. This ability has the same restrictions as does agile assault in regards to armor and weapons that may be utilized.
While performing a flourish, the Duelist gains one additional attack with their primary weapon. However, they tend to over reach, and leave themselves exposed. During a flourish, if the Dex check is failed, the character is treated as if prone, no bonuses are applied to their AC either from Dex or from Nimble Defense.
Avoid Death Blow (Con): A blow that would slay the Duelist can be avoided by rolling out of the way, parrying, ducking under a table, etc. The character digs deep to find the strength to avoid a blow that would surely strike it down. The character may use this ability only when clad in light armor, but may be wielding any weapon.
At the 9th level, the character can attempt this ability once per day. Once the attack that would deal the blow has been struck, and damage determined enough to bring the character to 0 or less HP, the character must attempt to use this ability. If successful, the character is brought down to 1HP, and can move 5xCon modifier feet away from the foe that would strike the blow.
This ability may not be used if the character had already attempted a dodge or evade action. However, if the Duelist was already attempting to disengage from combat, the character will receive a bonus to their Avoid Death Blow roll equal to their Dex modifier, this is in addition to the Con modifier normally applied.
Prime Attribute: Dexterity
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d8
Weapons: Any (see restrictions in Abilities)
Armor: Any (see restrictions in Abilities)
Abilities: Acute Awarness, Agile Assault, Improved Initiative, Nimble Defense, Taunt Foe, Resist Fear, Dual Wield, Flourish, Avoid Death Blow
Level....HD.......BtH........EPP
...1.......d8.........0...............0
...2.......d8.......+1.........2,501
...3.......d8.......+2.........5,501
...4.......d8.......+3.......11,001
...5.......d8.......+4.......22,001
...6.......d8.......+5.......45,001
...7.......d8.......+6.......90,001
...8.......d8.......+7......160,001
...9.......d8.......+8......330,001
.10.......d8.......+9......600,001
.11...+4 HP....+10......875,001
.12...+4 HP....+11...1,150,001
13+ 275,001 per level
Googleplex's fencer class is another way to approach this idea. But I agree your ideas above all work well
http://www.angelfire.com/or/FireHorse/Fencer.pdf
http://www.freeyabb.com/trolllordgames/ ... llordgames
http://www.angelfire.com/or/FireHorse/Fencer.pdf
http://www.freeyabb.com/trolllordgames/ ... llordgames
Bill D.
Author: Yarr! Rules-Light Pirate RPG
BD Games - www.playBDgames.com
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse.ph ... rs_id=5781
Author: Yarr! Rules-Light Pirate RPG
BD Games - www.playBDgames.com
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse.ph ... rs_id=5781
Relaxo wrote:
Googleplex's fencer class is another way to approach this idea. But I agree your ideas above all work well
http://www.angelfire.com/or/FireHorse/Fencer.pdf
http://www.freeyabb.com/trolllordgames/ ... llordgames
Ah, yes but the way googleplex has that class designed as an Int based warrior, not Dex
I still contend the description lends itself more to Dex (style, speed, finesse), while the abilities are strongly Int based, but that is flavor text. The abilities of the Fencer fit well with an Int based fighter.
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Lord Dynel
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In my house rules, I have expanded the "required" prime for all classes. All classes have two (or sometimes three) options for what prime they wish to have as the mandatory one. For fighters, I believe it's Dex or Str in my rules.
There's nothing wrong with having fighters use Dex modifiers for attack bonus, but I would make that something all classes have access to, not just fighters. Though, if you feel fighters need a bit more tricks, this would be fine. Just to make sure there's no imbalance, mind you. Maybe dex-prime fighters get this option and lose another printed option. Just a thought.
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There's nothing wrong with having fighters use Dex modifiers for attack bonus, but I would make that something all classes have access to, not just fighters. Though, if you feel fighters need a bit more tricks, this would be fine. Just to make sure there's no imbalance, mind you. Maybe dex-prime fighters get this option and lose another printed option. Just a thought.
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CharlieRock
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Taranthyll
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Lord Dynel wrote:
There's nothing wrong with having fighters use Dex modifiers for attack bonus, but I would make that something all classes have access to, not just fighters.
I allow anyone using finesse weapons to substitute dexterity modifiers for strength modifiers, regardless of class. It gives people a reason to use a rapier.
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Saarlander
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Ha, wanted to add my two cents on this while passing by in a hurry, but Taranthyll mostly got me there...
Problem popped somewhat up with my players lately, we solved it like this:
* Gave a new Class Ability accordingly called "Weapon Finesse" to the Fighter and the Assassin (and only those two) since they are the ones who should be able to strike fast and hard with anything, anyhow. So they can use their DEX mod for melee with light weapons.
And with this, people in my games wanting swashbucler types just go for the Fighter as is, and put some points into DEX (and maybe make it a prime for the stunts and acrobatics).
Also, since the Fighter, with Specialisation and all, has an awesome BtH, i would urge such characters to use the option to raise both their own AC and their enemy's by 1 or 2, so they can go light armored in battle, and with their BtH, still hit pretty well. Just have it go with nice in-game description about jumping around, using the environment, so on... and there we go without much crunchiness to do...
PS: Yeah, i know, i read Microlite20, it shows...
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People, i'm a German living in France, so please be forgiving about my English...
Problem popped somewhat up with my players lately, we solved it like this:
* Gave a new Class Ability accordingly called "Weapon Finesse" to the Fighter and the Assassin (and only those two) since they are the ones who should be able to strike fast and hard with anything, anyhow. So they can use their DEX mod for melee with light weapons.
And with this, people in my games wanting swashbucler types just go for the Fighter as is, and put some points into DEX (and maybe make it a prime for the stunts and acrobatics).
Also, since the Fighter, with Specialisation and all, has an awesome BtH, i would urge such characters to use the option to raise both their own AC and their enemy's by 1 or 2, so they can go light armored in battle, and with their BtH, still hit pretty well. Just have it go with nice in-game description about jumping around, using the environment, so on... and there we go without much crunchiness to do...
PS: Yeah, i know, i read Microlite20, it shows...
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People, i'm a German living in France, so please be forgiving about my English...
[quote="koralas
Ah, yes but the way googleplex has that class designed as an Int based warrior, not Dex
[\quote]
whoops
Ah, yes but the way googleplex has that class designed as an Int based warrior, not Dex
[\quote]
whoops
Bill D.
Author: Yarr! Rules-Light Pirate RPG
BD Games - www.playBDgames.com
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse.ph ... rs_id=5781
Author: Yarr! Rules-Light Pirate RPG
BD Games - www.playBDgames.com
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse.ph ... rs_id=5781
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gideon_thorne
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For characters with dex primes, I suggest adding half the level of the character to their AC. Fighter types can add half their level +1
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Fiffergrund
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There's a small problem with allowing the Dex modifier to hit for a fighter with a Dex prime:
Dex also provides AC and missile weapon benefits.
Essentially, this fighter could have one high score and gain the benefit of three different positive modifiers.
In order for a traditional fighter to do the same, he must have a high score in both Str and in Dex. Granted, this gains him a bonus to melee damage as well, but I think that is outweighed by the dex fighter's AC and missile bonuses.
So - I suggest that if this alteration is allowed, the dex fighter be armor-limited. Many of the houserules I've seen already do this, but it's important to articulate the reason behind it.
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Dex also provides AC and missile weapon benefits.
Essentially, this fighter could have one high score and gain the benefit of three different positive modifiers.
In order for a traditional fighter to do the same, he must have a high score in both Str and in Dex. Granted, this gains him a bonus to melee damage as well, but I think that is outweighed by the dex fighter's AC and missile bonuses.
So - I suggest that if this alteration is allowed, the dex fighter be armor-limited. Many of the houserules I've seen already do this, but it's important to articulate the reason behind it.
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Taranthyll
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Fiffergrund wrote:
Essentially, this fighter could have one high score and gain the benefit of three different positive modifiers.
In order for a traditional fighter to do the same, he must have a high score in both Str and in Dex. Granted, this gains him a bonus to melee damage as well, but I think that is outweighed by the dex fighter's AC and missile bonuses.
The imbalance is mitigated, somewhat, by restricting the substitution to light weapons. While it is true that the finesse fighter gets more benefits from a single attribute than the traditional fighter, the traditional fighter is still going to be able to dish out a lot more damage, particularly if he's using a two-handed sword or great axe.
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Go0gleplex
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I do have a DEX based fighter class...called the Blade Dancer.
http://www.angelfire.com/or/FireHorse/Blade_Dancer.pdf
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Fiffergrund
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Taranthyll wrote:
The imbalance is mitigated, somewhat, by restricting the substitution to light weapons. While it is true that the finesse fighter gets more benefits from a single attribute than the traditional fighter, the traditional fighter is still going to be able to dish out a lot more damage, particularly if he's using a two-handed sword or great axe.
Good point. Between that and a modest armor limitation, I think the ground is covered adequately. Besides, it rather defies the "archetype" to have a finesse fighter stomping around in plate.
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CharlieRock
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Taranthyll wrote:
The imbalance is mitigated, somewhat, by restricting the substitution to light weapons. While it is true that the finesse fighter gets more benefits from a single attribute than the traditional fighter, the traditional fighter is still going to be able to dish out a lot more damage, particularly if he's using a two-handed sword or great axe.
As long as you aren't throwing the old "Dual Wielding Dex Fighter" into the mix. Dual wielding is a great advantage only slightly mitigated by houseruling some sort of positive modifier to damage using a two handed grip on one weapon, and/or a penalty on off-hand strikes.
Has anyone else considered the C&C Bard to be a "dex Fighter"?
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