Ruminations on classes.

[gideon_thorne]

Why does a Paladin always have to be portrayed in flashy armor?

Why does a Thief always need to be the guy who steals?

Why is an Assassin always some dark cloaked death dealer?

Discuss?
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[TheMetal1]

Really it's a matter of Stereotypes. If you haven't played any fantasy games before this kind of sets the tone. You not required to do create a paladin in the mattter. But when you do it, it is usually recognizable in a story.

Of course if you've been playing for years, then it falls along the same lines as why are all adventurers meeting in a tavern. It's so cliche. When it comes down to it the paladin in shiny armor (or the other examples you gave - or even the meet in a tavern) only seems cliche if you've been playing fantasy RPGs (or maybe even reading it)over and over again.

In the example of the other two cases. Well the thief is by his very name a person who steals. And for the assassin, I've seen it in the way you portrayed, but breaking the mold is expected for this class as it has teh whole disguise thing.
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R is among the most menacing of sounds. Thats why they call it murder, not muckduck. DWIGHT SHRUTE, The Office

[Treebore]

Its often because the GM forces the stereotypes.

Then its gamers almost always go with what they know.
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[gideon_thorne]

A specific example comes to mind on a Paladin.

I submit two quotes

"I sense no evil in him."

"If he is not evil, I cannot harm him."

Therefore I posit that Van Helsing, from the movie of the same name, is a Paladin.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Geleg]

i like your train of thought, Peter. I like it a great deal, actually.

I'm trying to do this with an npc at the moment. he's actually a perfectly evil assassin (CE if one were keeping track of such things), but I'm playing him as bluff and hardy, smiling all the time, in the spotlight, hard to miss, etc. The players think he's a bard and vain. Well, he CAN sing, and he is VAIN, but he's also an assassin. bwa ha hahahahaha

Geleg
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[Treebore]

gideon_thorne wrote:
A specific example comes to mind on a Paladin.

I submit two quotes

"I sense no evil in him."

"If he is not evil, I cannot harm him."

Therefore I posit that Van Helsing, from the movie of the same name, is a Paladin.

Yeah, I had similar thoughts. Then later when he is identified as "The Right Hand of God" I think he is a bit more than a Paladin.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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[gideon_thorne]

Indiana Jones makes a good thief. Likely one with an Intelligence prime.
His fighting style is more reminiscent of a lucky swashbuckler than a fighter.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[gideon_thorne]

Course, the assassin could be something entirely different as a class.

What about a variation on the healer? Someone in another thread, I forget who, talked about expanding the assassins knowledge of herbology in new directions.

Why not explore that idea? The assassins skill at herbs could be expanded from just poisons, into creation of various herbal possets that could replicate different kinds of clerical spell powers.

The 'death attack' and 'sneak attack' could have their descriptive terminology changed into something akin to a knowledge of acupuncture and acupressure. Pressure points can do bad things. They also can do good things. Perhaps the 'death attack' could be reversed, and instead bring life if this herbalist makes the correct roll. This herbalist then becomes a class that has an assassin as its base, but changes its whole meaning with a few minor changes in class ability descriptions.

Ah, but what about disguise and case target you asked? So glad you brought that one up. Disguise as well as case target, what with the knowledge one would have of the human physiology, then becomes a kind of true seeing ability, with the power to see past the 'faces' that people wear. Not only is this character an expert in emulating mannerisms, but can penetrate them.

This way, your typical assassin can shift into something more geared to a broader game, or even something more oriental. You have a character here who can assume several roles. Not just killing people, but also with a range of useful abilities and persona's they can adopt.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Tadhg]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Course, the assassin could be something entirely different as a class.

What about a variation on the healer? Someone in another thread, I forget who, talked about expanding the assassins knowledge of herbology in new directions.

Why not explore that idea? The assassins skill at herbs could be expanded from just poisons, into creation of various herbal possets that could replicate different kinds of clerical spell powers.

The 'death attack' and 'sneak attack' could have their descriptive terminology changed into something akin to a knowledge of acupuncture and acupressure. Pressure points can do bad things. They also can do good things. Perhaps the 'death attack' could be reversed, and instead bring life if this herbalist makes the correct roll. This herbalist then becomes a class that has an assassin as its base, but changes its whole meaning with a few minor changes in class ability descriptions.

Ah, but what about disguise and case target you asked? So glad you brought that one up. Disguise as well as case target, what with the knowledge one would have of the human physiology, then becomes a kind of true seeing ability, with the power to see past the 'faces' that people wear. Not only is this character an expert in emulating mannerisms, but can penetrate them.

This way, your typical assassin can shift into something more geared to a broader game, or even something more oriental. You have a character here who can assume several roles. Not just killing people, but also with a range of useful abilities and persona's they can adopt.

Good idea this, nice!
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[Go0gleplex]

My paladins only end up in "flashy" armor at higher levels when they can actually afford such for ceremonial purposes. Usually a plain ol' suit of servicable plate works well in combat...which presumably the paladin is engaging in on a somewhat frequent basis. One could argue that in the interest of true humility or a show of absolute faith a paladin would fore-go armor or at least limit themselves to the armor of simple militiamen. IMO they will dress as most follows the tenets of the diety that they follow to better champion them in spirit as well as in deed.

Thieves or rogues are not required to be thieving buggers, but if one can do a thing, then one will usually do a thing as long as it does not conflict with the person's morale compass / values. I see no reason...and have a character that is in fact, a sniper/scout. He thieves to obtain information from the enemy if needed. The rogue could also be played as a courier of secret messages. Able to get in, leave and pick up messages at drops, and then get out without detection...all of which would utilize their skills. Deliver with discretion!

Assassins...yes. dress in dark, sinister garb. Tell the world that you are up to no good. Back in the day when I actually allowed the assassin as a PC, the person playing him spent more time drawing attention to themselves as a traveling performer than avoiding such. Being invited into the household of their target and into their presence proved far more effective and less effort intensive than going the dark sneaky route. He usually used a two part poison...so that it was not immediately evident that his target had been poisoned until he was usually safely away. So no...one does not have to play to stereo-type and can have far more fun and effect playing away from such...

2-cents worth.
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[Kaiser_Kris]

Go0gleplex wrote:
My paladins only end up in "flashy" armor at higher levels when they can actually afford such for ceremonial purposes. Usually a plain ol' suit of servicable plate works well in combat...which presumably the paladin is engaging in on a somewhat frequent basis. One could argue that in the interest of true humility or a show of absolute faith a paladin would fore-go armor or at least limit themselves to the armor of simple militiamen. IMO they will dress as most follows the tenets of the diety that they follow to better champion them in spirit as well as in deed.

Thieves or rogues are not required to be thieving buggers, but if one can do a thing, then one will usually do a thing as long as it does not conflict with the person's morale compass / values. I see no reason...and have a character that is in fact, a sniper/scout. He thieves to obtain information from the enemy if needed. The rogue could also be played as a courier of secret messages. Able to get in, leave and pick up messages at drops, and then get out without detection...all of which would utilize their skills. Deliver with discretion!

Assassins...yes. dress in dark, sinister garb. Tell the world that you are up to no good. Back in the day when I actually allowed the assassin as a PC, the person playing him spent more time drawing attention to themselves as a traveling performer than avoiding such. Being invited into the household of their target and into their presence proved far more effective and less effort intensive than going the dark sneaky route. He usually used a two part poison...so that it was not immediately evident that his target had been poisoned until he was usually safely away. So no...one does not have to play to stereo-type and can have far more fun and effect playing away from such...

2-cents worth.

On a random note, my favorite thing in any fiction to do with poisoning was in Babylon 5, when Londo Mollari gave Lord Refa a two-part poison. Both parts, independently, are virtually harmless. Combined? Deadly poison. He gave him the first part, for political advantage. I loved that little twist.

And who knows, there might be situations where an Assassin might find such a thing to be highly advantageous. Especially if your Asssassin also happens to be a noble, or working for a particular noble family.

[ThrorII]

Speaking of playing out of arch-type, the blog BXBlackrazor has an older article with an interesting take that 'Conan' is a thief. The writer argues that REH's Conan is not a fighter, or a barbarian, rather he is best portrayed as the thief class (moves silently, climbs sheer surfaces, reads magic (the rune of Jebel Sag, in Beyond the Black River), and reads ancient texts (in Jewels of Gwalhir). [arguably a thief with very high strength, dexterity and constitution scores].

This mostly applies to B/X D&D, since the attack progressions are not nearly as polarized as 3.5 or C&C are, but it is still an interesting concept. Not all theives are skulking guys with curvy daggers. It's all how you conceive the character.
http://bxblackrazor.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... thief.html

[lobocastle]

I have always considered Solomon Kane a Paladin.

JLL

[Treebore]

lobocastle wrote:
I have always considered Solomon Kane a Paladin.

JLL

Yeah, they definitely seem to be portraying him as one in the upcoming movie. At least he becomes one after he sickens/tires of the violence.
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[Relaxo]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Course, the assassin could be something entirely different as a class.

What about a variation on the healer? Someone in another thread, I forget who, talked about expanding the assassins knowledge of herbology in new directions.

Why not explore that idea? The assassins skill at herbs could be expanded from just poisons, into creation of various herbal possets that could replicate different kinds of clerical spell powers.

The 'death attack' and 'sneak attack' could have their descriptive terminology changed into something akin to a knowledge of acupuncture and acupressure. Pressure points can do bad things. They also can do good things....((snip))

Very cool train of thought, Peter!

It's like the kung fu movies wiht the old healer with a past he doesn't talk about... the girl is kidnapped and suddenly he goes from being a healer, herbalist, and massage therapist to a man who kills with his hands and becomes a dark hero... SWEET!

(now we need good art to go with this)

[Taranthyll]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Why does a Thief always need to be the guy who steals?

Discuss?

Because if he didn't steal he wouldn't be thief, would he?
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[anonymous]

Go0gleplex wrote:
Assassins...yes. dress in dark, sinister garb. Tell the world that you are up to no good.

Heh, by wearing leather armour and carrying a shield...

[gideon_thorne]

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
Heh, by wearing leather armour and carrying a shield...

Naw, ya just need a blank bit of parchment and a sworn oath to solemnly swear you are up to no good.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Lord Dynel]

Coming in late to the party...

I agree with the sterotype thoughts. I think Tree said, back on hte first page, that it cas/could be GM enfocement of these visions. I don't know if I agree with that, but I can only speak from personal experience. I can't, obviously, say it's not the case but I do all I can to make that not how those types are protrayed. But they are seen a lot in film and other media. I think Disney is to blame, honestly. And maybe the old black-and-white films of yesteryear and throw in some old pulp comics from ack in the day. The bad guys always wore black, were ugly, while the good guys had this sickening aura of purity and good radiating from them. That's my personal thoughts on the subject. And I think it's great to break from those accepted norms at every opportunity, too.
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