Can't get this out of my mind: About Assassins...

Saarlander · Post by **Saarlander** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:17 am

Just something that's bugging me since i crawled out of bed this morning (sometimes ideas pop up in strange ways):

By the book, it's a CON save against the Assassin death attack... Now, why not use the "save against death" instead, actually CHARISMA... ?

Can't get around this for now, as i keep liking the idea surviving poison, crushing, so on, is all about the bulk and steadiness (therefore CON), but surviving the silent, deadly cunning assassination attempt is actually full of "panache" (so... Charisma)... !

Although with this, some things would change deeply, i know, for now the high/prime CON guys (Barbarians, Fighters, so on...) suddenly have to fear assassins with their surgical precision (while not so much trembling before thieves and thugs... those hit hard in the first place, but not quite enough mostly, and they go down quick)... While Knights and so on suddenly are hard targets for the same Assassins (images of revered knights and noble leaders surviving assassin after assassin actually come to my mind now...).

So, i'm dropping this unto you people, might need some clearer thoughts on this one...
_________________
People, i'm a German living in France, so please be forgiving about my English...

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:28 am

Heh. This would fit well into my thread about the head-scratching moments of C&C!

Honestly, I don't know. It certainly fits the "death attack" criteria.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:15 pm

I'd always assumed the Charisma save was more for things like Finger of Death or that stupid Sphere of Annihilation in the Tomb of Horrors. (It got me)

And the Assassin strike was more of a arterial bleeding that only Constitution can help you with.

Disintegration and Disembowelment are two different things to my mind. But ymmv

_________________
The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:22 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
I'd always assumed the Charisma save was more for things like Finger of Death or that stupid Sphere of Annihilation in the Tomb of Horrors. (It got me)

And the Assassin strike was more of a arterial bleeding that only Constitution can help you with.

Disintegration and Disembowelment are two different things to my mind. But ymmv

Pretty much... Constitution save for being unfortunate enough for being on the opposite end of the assassin's blade is directly related to physical health. Magical 'death-like' effects can stick with Charisma were it is perhaps the 'force of personality' (since I hesitate to even use the term will here).

M
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

clavis123 · Post by **clavis123** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:11 pm

If I was to change the save versus Assassination I would use Wisdom instead, to represent a victim's intuition causing them to move out of the way just in time.

Dagger · Post by **Dagger** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:18 pm

I assumed it was a Constitution save because the target was unaware of the attack and it was basically their physical health that determined whether they survived or not. If they don't know the attack is coming, I don't see how their Charisma score factors in. There is no time for their force of will to come in to play. With other save vs. death attacks, I think the assumption is that the character is aware of it and is attempting to resist.
_________________
Rusty

Saarlander · Post by **Saarlander** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:58 am

Well, simulation-wise i sure agree when someone drives a blade into your back, CONSTITUTION will actually BE the dertemining factor on how well you live with it....

It's more that i somewhat got carried away by a purely narrative approach of things, having assassination being somewhat of an art form in depiction, and thus equally thinking about making the WILL to survive such a sinister attempt on one's life an actual matter far over one's bulk and health...

Sort of a "What i have to do is far too important to die now... aaargh !"

And i was thinking about pure meta-game balance somewhat, having to distinguish between:

*** sending in a ROGUE for high CHA but low HP kind of guys (the damage they can achieve with a single first strike will do the trick)

*** or having the ASSASSIN to deal with high profile mighty warriors (which the Rogue would mostly scratch up a bit, before horribly dying)

I guess now this line of thought also comes from a discussion between my players. I have one Rogue and one Assassin in my party, and the Rogue actually has more chances to kill an unaware opponent in one strike with his Back Attack than the Assassin with the Death Attack...
_________________
People, i'm a German living in France, so please be forgiving about my English...

Saarlander · Post by **Saarlander** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:33 am

Now i had some tchatter with my players, and still will (one of them out of town), and we all when head scratching fast.

But the main idea of having the Assassin strike in a different area than CON (as opposed to the Rogue, Sneak Attacking into HP, also ruled by CON) definetly got a point among us...

And then, as it gave me some thoughts too, i mentionned this:

clavis123 wrote:
If I was to change the save versus Assassination I would use Wisdom instead, to represent a victim's intuition causing them to move out of the way just in time.

And actually, it might now very well be the way we'll go. Because even my first day-dreaming about Noble Knights and Virtuous Paladins being hard targets for the Vile Assassins actually looks even better when it's Noble WISE Knights and Virtous ENLIGHTENED Paladins...

I still fully get why this is one of those cases House Ruling is all about adapting the game to fit specific genre/styles desires for one group (Long live C&C !), but not only do i like it, but since so far my players like it too, there's no reason anymore not to do it.

By the way, i notice now that Priest and Druids systematically become the hard targets... and i think it makes sense, as you can put it as clear minded, head on shoulders type of guys (ow, bad pun),... or even as the kind of unexplainable protection they get from faith, gods and spirits...

So i now will first thank everyone for their contribution on the matter, because it's really nice to be able to lay out such things with fellow gamers that are NOT sitting in front of my GM-screen the next week, AND have a lot of points of view and experience to share. Really, thanks people !

And if you want to go on on this, i'm still eager to participate on the discussion, and since i'm not setting anything into stone, nor am i DMing before next week end anyway...
_________________
People, i'm a German living in France, so please be forgiving about my English...

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:14 pm

You could just vary the save based on the type or method of the attack. Use CHA for the more panache type attacks, WIS for the sneak attack to be avoided, or CON for resisting the poison that was placed in your drink. This way all should be aware for they don't know from which way the attack may come or how it will be delivered. Plus, it makes the assassin more versatile.
_________________
Lord Aladar

Warden of the Welk Wood

Baron of the Castles & Crusades Society

The Poster formerly known as Alwyn

Senior Gamer - Member of the Senior RPG Tour

"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT - At least not in Yu Gi Oh"
http://www.cncsociety.org/

Saarlander · Post by **Saarlander** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:35 am

Aladar wrote:
You could just vary the save based on the type or method of the attack. Use CHA for the more panache type attacks, WIS for the sneak attack to be avoided, or CON for resisting the poison that was placed in your drink. This way all should be aware for they don't know from which way the attack may come or how it will be delivered. Plus, it makes the assassin more versatile.

Now now now... i admit i thought about that one in the first place, then hesitated since it makes the Assassin really really really (and even really) powerful...

But now i read it coming from someone else, i feel a lot less guitly...
What i will propose to my players today is that the Assassin could get to chose which Ability the target has to make the save with depending on how the Death Attack is done (STR for breaking the neck, DEX for a swift stike to the throat, CON for a deep hit to a vital spot, so on...), but only on a target the Assassin has successfully cased first, as per the Case Target ability (which is useful anyway, since knowing the class of the target at least gives out one Prime)...

What i see coming is that my Barbarian player will go mad as bonkers about this, when he now suddenly has to fear Assassins in general (and the Assassin PC in particular... but hey, he just seems unable to stop pissing her off, his fault after all)...
_________________
People, i'm a German living in France, so please be forgiving about my English...

Arazmus · Post by **Arazmus** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:59 am

I'll give it a go. I actually think the logic is sound.
_________________
I'll tell you what I do like though: a killer, a dyed-in-the-wool killer. Cold blooded, clean, methodical and thorough. ~Zorg