Updates

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:57 am

Hello all,

I'm going to endeavor to get a good solid round of product updates for you guys tomorrow. We've a few hitches we've just overcome but thigns are on track for an aggressive 8 weeks me thinks.

But more of that tomorrow as I am a dead beat.

Thanks,

Steve
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:00 am

Looking forward to what will be creeping from the Troll Dens...

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:56 am

I think I am bored with creeping, a gushing torrent would be far more entertaining right now.

PeelSeel2 · Post by **PeelSeel2** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:49 am

I need to spend money.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:49 am

Thanks Steve. An update will be great.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:11 pm

Gushing torrent... that's a lot of goodness, here's hoping. Nice adjectives.

.........................................Omote

FPQ
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:24 pm

PeelSeel2 wrote:
I need to spend money.

My wife takes care of that for me.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:25 pm

Troll Lord wrote:
Hello all,

I'm going to endeavor to get a good solid round of product updates for you guys tomorrow. We've a few hitches we've just overcome but thigns are on track for an aggressive 8 weeks me thinks.

But more of that tomorrow as I am a dead beat.

Thanks,

Steve

Looking forward to it.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:12 pm

According to the posts in Upcoming releases, 5 C&C modules are being released within the next month.

Way to go Trolls!
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Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:20 am

Maliki wrote:
According to the posts in Upcoming releases, 5 C&C modules are being released within the next month.

Way to go Trolls!

I agree that pushing out 5 modules in the next month is a great accomplishment and it bodes well for TLG's future publishing schedule. However, I for one am getting rather weary of seeing nothing *but* modules from the Trolls. I want more game, not more adventures. I don't hear anyone whining about the lack of adventures for C&C. What I *do* hear alot of is "Where's the CKG?" "Where's the Airhde book?".

Please understand that I know that these two products alone require a tremendous amount of effort to publish, and my hat is most certainly off to all the exceptional and hard work everyone over at TLG is responsible for. But judging from several comments I've seen on different message boards, and from my own players, I'm wondering if TLG's focus on publishing adventures instead of supplemental material might not be a mistake.

Regardless of these thoughts, I'm excited about what the future may hold for TLG, and I'll continue to be a C&C addict until I can no longer hold the dice in my hand.
Ink
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:00 am

Well, they have the CKG forum up and running now, so that is good.

I have been having similiar thoughts to you. I have come to realize that the Trolls are in a bit of a pickle. Most of us have all the supplemental material we could possibly need.

So I would suspect the Trolls are a bit leery of putting a lot of effort/resources into supplements that may flop due to lack of substantial demand. This includes Erde. They have yet to sell out of their original print run for d20.

Most people familiar with C&C know that they already have a CKG, several of them. We call them OD&D, 1E, 2E, and 3E DMG's. As for alternate systems/ideas WE already have them.

So if my suspicions are correct I can understand the Trolls wanting to build up capitol before taking such financial risks. I would hate for the CKG and Airhde books ending up killing the Trolls and C&C if they ended up being financial bombs that would sink them.

So if the Trolls are doing this to build up a financial buffer to help them weather such bombs, if that is what they end up being, then more power to them.

If they end up being successes, so much the better!

Plus I am sure these new modules are printed on the Trolls new printing machines, so I am anxious to see how good they look.

Hah! Figuring out how to use those friggin machines has probably been the real hold up!

Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:43 am

I like adventures (especially site-based ones that I can easily "plug-in"). However, what I *REALLY* want to see are the next Castle Zagyg installments and the Yggsburgh modules!

I've been enjoying the Gygaxian Fantasy books, too. And I'll pick up the Castle Keepers Guide when it comes out.

Arioch · Post by **Arioch** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:17 am

woot

ken
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cleaverthepit · Post by **cleaverthepit** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:16 am

Verdant Rage is ready for order

Fisj for Breakfast is ready for order

next wen, mort is ready

following thurs vak or wicked

following friday vakhund

they are coming out now

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:05 pm

Clever's language is scary. I'm not sure whether or not I should run out and pick up

Fisj for Breatkfast

It sounds like a delectable demonic trap. Fisj!

Good news!

..........................................Omote

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Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:52 pm

Treebore wrote:
They have yet to sell out of their original print run for d20.

I can see two reasons for this: 1. The Codex of Erde got really bad reviews due to editing/formatting issues. 2. People are reluctant to buy a product written for a system that the company no longer supports. They'd much rather wait for the fully-supported product to come out.

Treebore wrote:
Most people familiar with C&C know that they already have a CKG, several of them. We call them OD&D, 1E, 2E, and 3E DMG's. As for alternate systems/ideas WE already have them.

I've heard many, many people accuse C&C of being nothing more than a 1E knockoff - that without 1E, C&C doesn't have its' own identity and couldn't stand on its' own as a game system. I have fought tooth and nail against this idea, because I believe C&C has merit. But your statement kind of throws a monkey wrench into this. I'm going to have to think long and hard on this one.

Treebore wrote:
So if my suspicions are correct I can understand the Trolls wanting to build up capitol before taking such financial risks. I would hate for the CKG and Airhde books ending up killing the Trolls and C&C if they ended up being financial bombs that would sink them.

See, I don't get this. Traditionally, modules are not a moneymaker. It's why TSR and WOTC stopped publishing them. Everything I have read (and granted, I'm not an expert in the field) says that modules traditionally sell much less than supplemental material. Which makes sense - most GM's I know and have known tend to dislike using published modules simply because they want to make their own adventures.

Am I the only one who feels this way on these boards? I don't want it to seem like I'm slamming on the Trolls - I'm not. Ask anyone who knows me, and you'll hear that I'm a complete TLG fanboy who is constantly preaching about the merits of C&C. I just.....don't......understand.....some things.
Ink
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:23 pm

Inkpot wrote:
Am I the only one who feels this way on these boards? I

No Ink, you're not. I am also not a huge fan of published modules, although I do pick them up for ideas. However, it has been said that TLG WANTS to make modules and that these modules are an important aspect of their ~mission statement~ (or other likewise term). TLG is committed to bringing out lots of modules to support their system.

I would love to see other projects like the CKG and the ADVENTURER'S BACKPACK. System books like this were not the reason TLG wanted to put out C&C, that much is for sure, but I still think that supplements like these will be a worthy addition to the C&C game. I like books like these in broader terms of mass market appeal then personal opinion as INK is absolutely correct in stating books like these sell better.

.........................................Omote

FPQ
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sieg · Post by **sieg** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:31 pm

The "modules don't sell" argument is a matter of scale. For a company the size of TSR in its heyday and WOTC, yes; modules are a loss. But for small publishers (and TLG is still a small pub!) it can make money. Especially at the prices TLG sells them at; cheap enough to stand out in the crowd but still make a profit.

IMO, while I'd probably pick up a CKG to be a completist I think C&C stands just fine on its own wwith the PHB/M&T duo. Yes, I use the 1E DMG for anything else, but hell that's due to personal preference...not a real need. The Adventurers Backpack has 0 interest from me, but I realize many others find it valuable. IF TLG can do it, more power to 'em!

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:39 pm

Its simple, really. Everyone is right, though not on every point. Big books (CKG, 1001 Monsters, Adventurer's Backpack) are cost-heavy initially, but tend to sell better, making more profit in the long run. Short things (modules) are less expensive to produce, and faster to release, because they are shorter. They tend to have a quick impact on money (sell fast initially) and then peters out. So, what TLG, in my opinion (not fact) is doing: release several short modules to build the interest, make some money, and then smack them with a supplement book, since we can now afford to do it, and have the customer base to do so.

C&C is a game on its own. The CKG is not intended to be a "how to play" but a "how to use what you have" book. It is a guide... not a rulesbook.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:46 pm

Ink is right that people think C&C is a dumbed down version of 1E, and/or that it isn't a complete system. Now granted that just proves people form their opinion without knowing anything about C&C, but it does give me the hope that when the CKG does come out the fan base will hopefully grow because the intentionally ignorant will finally put forth the effort to really know C&C.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:30 pm

Well... Folks on message boards might have that opinion about C&C, but those who I talk to at conventions, who have no clue about the online controversy, just see C&C as a newer version of an old idea.

There are a lot of people out there who are not caught up in web forum drama, who simply see a game as a game and don't get preoccupied over 'editions'. Many of these folks are our customers, and never come on a web forum.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:34 pm

I'm also not a big fan of the idea that C&C is a D&D emulator or relies on AD&D. I think C&C should have it's own identity and that outside of comparing the system to early D&D TLG needs to try to move the game to it's own identity.

I have some of the modules more for idea mining than anything but I would rather see the CKG, the later Zagyg stuff, and 1001 monsters rather than more modules. But, it is whatever can make TLG the bucks and keep us in gaming goodness.
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Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:05 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
I'm also not a big fan of the idea that C&C is a D&D emulator or relies on AD&D. I think C&C should have it's own identity and that outside of comparing the system to early D&D TLG needs to try to move the game to it's own identity.

I agree, Grimm. Airhde and Zagyg are what is going to give C&C it's identity...much like Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms gave D&D it's identity. I honestly don't know how well C&C is doing in the market at this point in time, so I can't comment on that. And I haven't been to a convention in eons, so I can't comment on what people may or may not be saying at such gatherings.

All I *can* say is that when my players are describing C&C to a new player (which they seem to be constantly springing on me at the last minute), their exact words are "It's polished up 1E AD&D", and I really can't argue with them. It would be a completely different matter if the Airhde book, the CKG, etc. were available. At least then I could point to something no other game has (meaning the content).

I'm probably not explaining this well, so I should probably shut my yap. I just hope some of this makes sense to somebody.
Ink
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:17 pm

Inkpot wrote:
I agree, Grimm. Airhde and Zagyg are what is going to give C&C it's identity...much like Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms gave D&D it's identity.

I agree about Aihrde and CZ, but don't dismiss modules for an additional contribution to C&C identity. I think B/AD&D dungeon/adventure modules gave D&D way more of an identity than a campaign world. Heck when we started, we played modules and didnt' even know some of them were set in Greyhawk until years later.

Now some of that may have changed in 3.X these days with Eberron, but I think the C&C modules will go a long way to spread the word.

Some of us want mods, some of us want the CKG and supplements and others want more campaign material. All go together, IMO, to further the cause and identity of C&C.
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miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:32 pm

Inkpot wrote:
Airhde and Zagyg are what is going to give C&C it's identity...much like Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms gave D&D it's identity.

Ink

C&C is 1st edition, refined and most importantly, currently in publication. We all know the pros of the game outweigh the cons. I wouldn't bash mods though. Mods, not Greyhawk, established AD&D. Campaigns furthered it's reputation. Both can help promote C&C as can another core book.

An important point has been brought up here though. For years, I've created both my own mods and my own campaign as do many others. This divergence from published works generally happens as GMs seek to customize the game/mods/campaign to suit their own personal tastes. So the real question is how to get these gamers to continue to buy publications. The answer: I don't know. In the past TSR/WOTC's solution was to republish core books with new art (cooler covers) or to re-invent the game as 2nd then 3rd edition so people have to buy the core books all over again. New art is fine. A new game...not so fine in my book.

There has to be another way.

Brian Miller
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Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:20 pm

miller6 wrote:
I wouldn't bash mods though. Mods, not Greyhawk, established AD&D. Campaigns furthered it's reputation. Both can help promote C&C as can another core book.

I must apologize. The fact that you think I'm bashing the modules means that I didn't do a very good job of explaining myself. I love the modules that the Trolls continue to crank out. I'm just questioning their particular approach in publishing.

But, it's not my kingdom and I'm not the king, so to speak.
Ink
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:24 pm

I didn't have much time to respond earlier but I feel that there are still a couple of points worth mentioning. (Inkpot... I do get what you're trying to say so this isn't addressed to you... or anyone else for that matter)

With regards to TLG still having d20 material from intial print runs, the assessment that bad editing or reviews were probably not the main reasons for this. With the OGL, so many small time presses as well as other larger ones were all jumping on the bandwagon. Of course, in the early days of d20, people got whatever they could since there was (initially) little. But that quickly changed. In the ocean of d20 material... how do you distinguish yourself -- especially if you're a smaller press. For a smaller press trying to overcome these things, yes things like modules are a way to go (for reasons already mentioned in this thread). Various presses tried to distinguish themselves with campaign settings or styles. However, the massive amounts of the stuff currently on the market might be why TLG still has this d20 material that hasn't been sold yet.

Before I found out about C&C... I had never heard of TLG. However, when I did find out about the game, I also checked out their other offerings. The Erde Codex was among them and the reviews I've read were very positive in comparison to all that other d20 stuff. Personally, had I found out about it earlier (when still actively playing 3.x) I would have picked it up. Presnetly, I have picked it up as well as every sourcebook or modual associated with it to use (and convert as needed) for my game.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that, if TLG needed to find a way to stand out more, C&C was a significant way to do so.

Comparisons will be many if you're talking C&C and AD&D. There's no escaping that. The game was designed that way with a significant nod to to classic (nostalgic) gaming styles of old. Considering how integratable old AD&D material is for C&C, that shouldn't surprise anyone of us. However, despite these comparisons, in my mind it also demonstrates how, the current incarnation of D&D is still related (despite being a distant cousin) to the original game.

When I talk about the game, I pretty much present it as a 'best of both worlds' -- it took the feel and simplistic elements of AD&D with some of the streamlined mechanics of d20 (the unified d20 mechanic is the best thing that it has given us). In fact, a lot of the problems that AD&D suffered under have actually been corrected and balanced while other ones persist.

However, if you've never been exposed to AD&D and started gaming in a D&D 3.x world, you won't necessarily see this comparison. To them, adopters of C&C after being burnt out on 3.x, they'll see it as a simpler streamlined version of D&D that they happen to have cut their teeth on.

Finally, in terms of coverting d20 material to C&C... the mods will be the easiest due to their size. Larger works will take longer of course but be forthcoming. New mods are also great to showcase the feel of a campaign setting. Other sourcebooks will be naturally longer to produce and edit. This current list of updates should be seen as growth as opposed to stagnation.

But that's my opinion and not meant as an attack.

Moriarty the Red
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:02 pm

Inkpot wrote:
I agree that pushing out 5 modules in the next month is a great accomplishment and it bodes well for TLG's future publishing schedule. However, I for one am getting rather weary of seeing nothing *but* modules from the Trolls. I want more game, not more adventures. I don't hear anyone whining about the lack of adventures for C&C. What I *do* hear alot of is "Where's the CKG?" "Where's the Airhde book?".

Please understand that I know that these two products alone require a tremendous amount of effort to publish...

Your concerns are very valid Ink and something we discuss around here frequently. But if you look at those five mods all over them are very late. Verdant should have been out in 2005 for pete's sake...or for Mike's sake and A4 and A5 are horribly late too. Mort and Vak are now both late. So the gush of mods that you are seeing is actually us clearing the pipe for what is coming down the pipe. Once these are clear it will free us up to get back to a more solid release schedule.

And the there are four large projects in the offing from TLG for C&C: Castle Keeper Guide (Davis has begun compiling), Aihrde box set (I've not quite started compiling but I'm thinking about it ), Castle Zagyg (Gary and Peter are ironing out maps) and Aufstrag (which I have only thought about and Peter has warned me that its going to take xteen hundreds of maps to chart as the place is so big).

Aside from that we have a number of monster books, which you will see building here soon. Robert has written about 60-75 or so and several artists are working on them now. We'll release those as well as the Aihrde monster books in pdf, slowly compiling up into either the M&T II or Davis's pet project 1001 Monsters (that's alot of monsters I keep telling him). And let us not forget to screens, which would be done if I would quit pulling Peter off the cover art for and putting him on the latest daily-monday-emergency, the Crusader and a few more projects (Robert has submitted a really nifty Dungeon Builder) and the revived diety books Codex Germania, Codex Galicia etc etc

We have alot coming, and you'll see it popping out faster and faster as we get ever more organized.

Your concerns are one's we have voiced here, and appreciate you being aware of them. In the meantime, we'll build up the brand line with modules (which do us a fare trade in revenue) and get this whole show on the road.

We are looking for 2007 as a break through year for C&C with the release of the CKG, Aihrde and other projects.

Thanks,

Steve

ps: but dirn it all I have to get those screens done!
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:13 pm

Hallo Treebore,

Would you email me off list, I need to get some art assignments out. Thanks. Now on to your comments...

Treebore wrote:
Well, they have the CKG forum up and running now, so that is good.

I have been having similiar thoughts to you. I have come to realize that the Trolls are in a bit of a pickle. Most of us have all the supplemental material we could possibly need.

For C&C to continue to grow (some 15 months in the top 20, last 8 months inthe top 10 RPGs) we must have a wide variety of supplemental material. Even if you own it, a huge chunk of our consumers and potential consumers don't. Its a matter of battling for shelf space. With 2-3 books out we shrink on the shelf. With a dozen we start commanding space. The CKG, screens, monster supplements, Aihrde are needed to command that space. Sells on all these items are expected to be strong.

Treebore wrote:
So I would suspect the Trolls are a bit leery of putting a lot of effort/resources into supplements that may flop due to lack of substantial demand. This includes Erde. They have yet to sell out of their original print run for d20.

No. We aren't concerned with this actually. Believe it or not but the Codex of Erde is our third best selling product. Outsold only by the Players Handbook and World Builder (Names may have surpassed it now). When it came out I think it sold some 2400 out the gate. We had a very large print run. We've sold through most of that, and there are only about 200 or so left. What is holding up Aihrde is me. I am the main developer on that and my time has been gobbled up by various and sundry silly things around here for weeks. That's come to an end so Aihrde is beginning again...you see that this weekend with the release of the PDF Monsters of Aihrde I.

Treebore wrote:
So if my suspicions are correct I can understand the Trolls wanting to build up capitol before taking such financial risks. I would hate for the CKG and Airhde books ending up killing the Trolls and C&C if they ended up being financial bombs that would sink them.

You are right here. Modules are cheap and easy and we make a few dime doing it. And these quickly extablish us shelf space. Every time I talk to a retailer and mention that we have over a dozen products out so far they are always stunned. But you and Ink are right, the modules are good but there must be more.

Treebore wrote:
So if the Trolls are doing this to build up a financial buffer to help them weather such bombs, if that is what they end up being, then more power to them.

If they end up being successes, so much the better!

Plus I am sure these new modules are printed on the Trolls new printing machines, so I am anxious to see how good they look.

Hah! Figuring out how to use those friggin machines has probably been the real hold up!

Err. No comment. LOL

Steve
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Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:25 pm

Thanks so much for replying, Steve. It does indeed sound like 2007 is going to be a breakthrough year for C&C. I keep forgetting that you guys are a smaller publisher and that you don't have a hundred staff members fluttering around trying to get everything pushed through. In all honesty, you've done a better job than some other publishers who are twice your size.

Secondly, it's a tremendous relief to hear that TLG recognizes the very same concerns that I've been having regarding the publishing schedule. I certainly don't envy you guys - it's got to be a major p.i.t.a. to prioritize which books get published next. Clearing your desks in order to finish up the "heavy hitter" releases certainly makes sense. I've got to say that I'm really excited about the upcoming titles you've mentioned (although at times I think you're a bit of a sadist!).

At any rate, thanks for addressing yet another whiney forum drama-king's issues. And, if I may offer a suggestion, if you start depriving Peter of sleep, that'll add another 6-10 hours of production time to the various projects.
Cheers,

Ink
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