One last issue with change from 4E to C&C

[GameOgre]

Hey guys! My Sat 4E group is all set to change to C&C after over a year of when we need a break from our normal 4E game playing C&C.

However I have run up against a issue that I can't seem to solve.

The party has a Warlord Healer. Now this player LOVES his warlord and will not change wilingly to anything else and do the same role. No cleric ect....

He loves his character and I'm not wanting to step on that. This player was a total min/max hack and slash player"not that that is all bad " but asince his Warlord was created has broken away from that and now actually role plays a good deal.

So I need a good Warlord conversion for C&C. I sat down last sunday and tried to rock out a conversion but sadly.......my attempt sucked. WAY too much raw healing power over time and WAY too little in a crunch.

So im asking you guys to give me a hand if you can.

It needs to reflect the same non-magical feel of the 4E warlord, it needs to be able to act as a full time healing support character as well as not be worthless in combat himself.

I realize this is a pain in the a**e and a tall order to ask for. Any help you can give would be awsome!
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Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

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[Breakdaddy]

Concobar might be able to help with this. Hopefully he will see this thread. I dont know jack about 4th edition as Ive never gotten a chance to play so I can be of no help.

[Omote]

No help here either. Not trying to bash at all, but what the frackleberry is a Warlord Healer?
~O
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[GameOgre]

Warlord's act as support much like the cleric but in a differant way.

They are based on the 3.5 Marshal class. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Marshal_(3.5e_Class)
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Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

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[GameOgre]

mostly by adding temp hit points to others in the form of added confadence as well as leadership on the battlefield.

If for instance Hit Points are not direct health but also luck,skill,confidence,endurance ect then it makes since thqat you could have a healer effect things that are not just health.

4E plays a lot more loose and roleplay in its Hit Points that traditional games do in actual play.

I mean even in AD&D and C&C we acknowledge that this is so but in actual game play its more often than not,IS used as Health only.

I've never seen a AD&D game when the DM told the players the gnolls blow reversed its course and almost takes off your head. You manage to block it at the last momment but the rock in the pit of your stomache tells you it was a close thing. Take off 12 hp from the attack.

With this sort of lose interpretation of Hit Points it makes far more since in game terms to have a healer who doesnt actually heal you.

I love this myself and have really embraced this playstyle in my games but much of 4E I detest after a year of playing.

My goal is to Marry the stuff from 4E I love" Hit Points and the way the game handles NPC's and Monsters with C&C.

It isnt that much a stretch in most ways....I just lack the skill to balance the Warlord in a way that both is simple and fast as well as keeps its flavor and his role in the group secure.

I never have been good at class creation.[/list]
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Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

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[double-c]

So you want a 4e character that's functionally the same as his C&C variant?

C&C characters are relativity simple in design (which is why I love them so much).

His Warlord could have a Tactics skill, something he can use on other characters to get them to fight, maneuver, or perform a needed action.

Charisma + Level vs TN 12

Limit Healing Word to his Charisma Mod in times per day he can use it +4. He can use this as a swift action on his turn. The amount it heals could be based on a static number or random variable. Perhaps the targets max hit dice value. So if he uses it on a Figher he would heal 10 hit points

(I think d10 is HD for a Fighter, although I could be wrong).

[JediOre]

Would a blending of the knight and cleric classes come close to what you seek?

[concobar]

Breakdaddy wrote:
Concobar might be able to help with this. Hopefully he will see this thread. I dont know jack about 4th edition as Ive never gotten a chance to play so I can be of no help.

Knight with a healing shout.

For what it is worth I have been using the LL rules for my game lately.

[neuronphaser]

concobar wrote:
Knight with a healing shout.

Maybe a blend of Knight and Paladin, to a degree. Lay on hands would be the basis for the healing, but Knight for the leadership.

The best option, I think, would be to use those two classes as a guide, but take what you (or the player) feel are the most iconic powers of the Warlord at heroic and paragon tiers and translate those to more C&C-ified abilities. More thematic, I guess, than straight up powers are.

I'm not versed on the Warlord well, but something like this:

Healing Shout (similar to lay on hands, but slightly weaker because it can be used at range)

Tactics (give an allied character an extra attack against an enemy you hit)

Diversionary Tactics (gives an allied character a chance to hide in what might otherwise be "plain sight"; could set up a rogue/assassin for a "free" sneak attack)

Renew the Assault (hit opponent that injured one of your allies; that ally gains healing/bonus to attacks/bonus to checks/something else)

You could also consider folding some other 4th Edition-isms into the Warlord to differentiate them, like giving them an ability that effectively acts as Marking does, or give them some movement-related abilities (giving allies a free 5-foot step or move action, pushing/pulling enemies towards allies to set them up for flank attacks, etc.)

Just some thoughts.

[double-c]

Make sure you clear this custom class stuff with your players. Even if they agree with everything to put before them. Make it your groups project.

[ThrorII]

While it is not a perfect fit, I agree that either a knight/cleric class and a half, or knight/paladin class and a half would be the closest fit.

Upon further thoughts, I'd go with a knight/paladin class and a half.

[Treebore]

All the Warlord does is grant extra Healing Surges in 4E, so to convert it to C&C allow the Warlord to "Encourage" (or some similar theme/concept) those around him by allowing themselves to heal=to their current level +3 once per encounter per character, spell equivalent action. Then his other main powers can probably be based off of what the C&C Knight does.

I would have to pull out my 4E PH to give better suggestions.

One Idea I do like from 4E is the once per encounter powers, but the execution of it is what leaves me unhappy. Plus Healing Surges are just ridiculous for my gaming tastes.

Not knocking 4E, just giving an example of why it isn't in my "Top 5 RPG's to play" list. It might make my top 10 if I think about it.

Anyways, if I have time before my game I am running in a few hours, I'll pull out my 4E PH and see if I can give better conversion ideas.
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[double-c]

Treebore wrote:
Plus Healing Surges are just ridiculous for my gaming tastes.

As opposed to what? Popping healing potions, or a wand of cure light wounds used 17 times a day. Both are equally ridiculous, option 2 just costs gold.

I still respect your opinion though, and will fight many goblins to defend it.

[Treebore]

double-c wrote:
As opposed to what? Popping healing potions, or a wand of cure light wounds used 17 times a day. Both are equally ridiculous, option 2 just costs gold.

I still respect your opinion though, and will fight many goblins to defend it.

In 4E its healing surges in combination with " Popping healing potions, or a wand of cure light wounds used 17 times a day. " So when you add ridiculous to more ridiculous, it becomes far more ridiculous.

Plus at least Potions and Wands need to be made or recharged, and don't regenerate automatically after "extended rests", so yeah, 4E is over the top ridiculous.

Edit: Again, this is my opinion, so if you love 4E, more power to you, but at least now you know to not even think about inviting me to play in your 4E game. My answer will be "No." unless I am bored and one of my many normal games was canceled.
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[serleran]

My main issue with healing surges is that I do not want my players to have any additional healing reliability-- they can hire clerics and seek healing potions if they need it. The more healing they have, the more likely they are to do stupid things... but, that's just my experience. Conceptually, I can see merit to the idea, but it does not fit my RPG playing motif.

That said, I'd see these guys as being able to invoke a spell-like effect similar to prayer, aid, and bless. Sort of like knights in a way, but definitely divinely inspired. As to whether they can heal others... I dunno much about the class, so I can't say -- but, I do not like adding in more and more healing. There is plenty of that if the party plays smart.
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[Omote]

While I am not a fan of healing surges, essentially they are just another abstract portion of what hit points are. In playing/running the Midnight campaign setting, you really get to feel the lack of healing that is available. More often than not, players who suffered 10, 15, 20 or whatever amount of HP damage learned that in order to heal up, you just have to have bed rest for a good long time. Getting stabbed with a long sword sucks. Be prepared to take a few days off.
~O
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[Breakdaddy]

Getting stabbed with a longsword sucks?

I must think on this at length...

[concobar]

damage and healing in every version of D&D is abstract. preference is simply a matter of taste and not reality.

[anglefish]

In addition to backing the vote for a Knight/paladin-cleric combo, I'd also consider Action Points (sans the feat related stuff.)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adven ... Points.htm

It will give them another "resource" to use for the game that lets them feel like they have an edge.

I'd also agree that some SIEGE checks for some warlord-like abilities wouldn't be bad either.

[Lord Dynel]

Treebore wrote:
Edit: Again, this is my opinion, so if you love 4E, more power to you, but at least now you know to not even think about inviting me to play in your 4E game. My answer will be "No." unless I am bored and one of my many normal games was canceled.

I think a bard might be able to fill this role, too, Ogre. Maybe class-and-a-half knight/bard. As far as healing ability goes, give the character something special - the ability to lay on hands, a "siphoning" ability (he uses his own hp to help others), allow all healing administered by that character (via wand or spells if he goes knight/cleric, or bard/cleric) to be maxmized or increased in effectiveness, or something of that caliber.

Try to explain to your player, if he doesn't already know, that warlords don't exist in C&C. But hand him the book and let him make something that he'll enjoy playing as long as it's not too overpowered.
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[GameOgre]

Thanks for all the ideas and posts guys! I'm still working towards creating a working class for the Captain.
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Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

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[Lurker]

I've never even seen a 4e game so this is just a shot in the dark, but from the sound of the class I'd say its a mix of knight cleric or possibly paladin/bard or a jumble of parts from all 4 of them. If so just copy and paste the skills that fit the class and rename them as needed.

From picturing warlord/marshal I'd say give him a knight HP to hit and arms and armor usage (not sure about the mounted combat) Plus the inspire ability. Also throw in tactics that if the other players take his advice get a plus 1 to hit and AC: (If you two stand here just below the crest of the hill the orcs will have to fight you as they slow from running up hill, your shields will give cover to the rest of the party, and everyone will be able to shoot arrows launch spells etc from above and behind with out hitting you. However if anyone charges down hill to crash head long into the orcs ... all bets are off) Then also give him limited "healing" -not sure how powerful but say x amounts of points to spread as he wants each day ...

Again just a shot in the dark.

Tree/Serl. I agree 110% with you all on this, but that is going on a rabbit chase and I have to study for eng comp (and haven't had my beer for the night) so I'll just let my dogs stay on the porch for that one ...
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[Treebore]

Upon actually pulling out the book and refreshing my memory about the Warlord class, its impossible to do a straight up conversion. After all their are 39 possible powers to pick by 10th level alone, depending on if he went tactical or Inspiring, and it sounds like he went Inspiring.

So what I would do is sit down with the player and ask him what it is about the class that really make it work for him. Tell him to keep it to 8 or less "powers".

Then I could probably work up a conversion that would work for him in C&C.
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