Quick & Dirty: Perception Checks

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue May 25, 2010 10:23 pm

Across forums and in many games, often the question is asked if some sort of perception check is needed to notice something.

While there are no hard rules regarding such a thing in C&C, a quick and dirty system is needed. Heres how quick and dirty perception rolls work:

When the chance comes that the characters may notice something unusual, but the players are not role-playing in a way that will lead them to recognize a potential issue, the CK rolls a d20. The CK may add a bonus to this roll equal to the average challenge level of the area. The average challenge level could be equal the median HD of the creatures in the area, an average of the player characters experience level, or any other number the CK finds relevant for the situation. The CK notes this roll.

The player characters simply roll a d20 and add their level to the roll.

If the player characters roll meets or exceeds the roll the CK made as noted above, that character succeeded on the perception check and noticed the unusual issue.

~O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue May 25, 2010 10:37 pm

Yeah, that's one way. You could also extrapolate the Listen rules to cover more than hearing. Creatures with the Scent ability also probably have fewer reasons to roll a "perception" check to detect many things.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed May 26, 2010 1:21 am

I've expanded the Listen check to include "perception" as well (pretty much like serl said, actually). The reason for that is becuase a cleric (for example) can roll a Wisdom check (imho, the closest thing to a perception roll), add his level and Wis modifier, and all of a sudden he's as good as a rogue...and the rogue can only listen. So, my standard perception roll is a d20 plus Wis modifier vs CB 12 or 18 plus the CL - no level addition to the check (in essence, "Perception" - listening, spotting, etc - is now a rogue and assassin class skill).
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed May 26, 2010 1:43 am

To avoid the debates regarding whether WIS makes better perception checks, or which class is better at what for what reason, I think you have to go outside the convention. In fact, forget the OP, and perhaps perception is flat out better rolling a d20 by the CK and a d20 by the party members. If the PCs roll better than the CK, then they notice it.

For perception checks, personally I don't use them. The players really have to ask the right questions or if there is an easy chance for them noticing something, I just tell them what they perceive.

But if mechanics are needed, and players are not asking the right questions or not grasping a situation, it's better to make the task resolution simple and stay out of the way of established mechanics. Straight roll. Go.

~O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed May 26, 2010 1:48 am

I agree, to an extent. One reason I was tinkering with "any-man rolls" in previous posts. For C&C, I pretty much make it a "tell me what you're doing" and if what you're doing could give you a chance, I tend to go with either a d6, d8, d12, or d20... depending on how hard it would be based on what you're doing. Always a 1:X chance. For example, if I ask the thief player what his rogue is doing and he says he's scouring the treasure chest, examining it for traps... I don't give him a good chance to notice the thing creeping behind him (he can Listen for it, though) so probably a 1:12 (I tend to consider thieves more paranoid, so they rarely get a 1:20.)

The SIEGE Engine does not "work" for everything, though it can fake it pretty well.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed May 26, 2010 1:54 am

That makes sense, Omote. I just believe that most actions have something (an attribute, usually) to govern and guide them. To grapple, it's strength and/or dexterity. Attacking with a sword is strength (and BaB, of course). To decipher script, it's intelligence. To me (and, of course, YMMV) wisdom is the most appropriate governing attribute.

But yeah, I have to hear something along the lines of a player describe to mw what he's doing - more importantly, if he's looking, scanning, listening, etc. Without that, there's not even a roll.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed May 26, 2010 6:15 pm

I have been thinking of going back to a d30 for perception issues, such as searching, figuring things out, etc... I used it for many years and its the best system I ever used.

In case anyone is interested you have the players average their INT and WIS scores and to see, hear, or figure something out they have to roll that average or less on a D30.

Then for specific class abilities use the standard d20 SIEGE check.

That way PC's who do not have a class ability allowing them to be super good at it still have a decent chance at it with the d30 roll, and those with class abilities get really really good at it.
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Arazmus · Post by **Arazmus** » Thu May 27, 2010 1:09 pm

and elves get some sort of bonus do they not?
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Shenron · Post by **Shenron** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:18 am

Treebore wrote:
I have been thinking of going back to a d30 for perception issues, such as searching, figuring things out, etc... I used it for many years and its the best system I ever used.

In case anyone is interested you have the players average their INT and WIS scores and to see, hear, or figure something out they have to roll that average or less on a D30.

Then for specific class abilities use the standard d20 SIEGE check.

That way PC's who do not have a class ability allowing them to be super good at it still have a decent chance at it with the d30 roll, and those with class abilities get really really good at it.

This is so going into my house rules, I just need some D30's now.
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Peter · Post by **Peter** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:13 pm

For a proper perception stat, what's really needed are some sort of Vision and Scent stats. Being smart (INT), and knowing a lot (WIS) doesn't cover situations like catching something out of the corner of your eye or smelling that hint of gas before lighting that torch.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:55 pm

[quote="Peter"]For a proper perception stat, what's really needed are some sort of Vision and Scent stats. Being smart (INT), and knowing a lot (WIS) doesn't cover situations like catching something out of the corner of your eye or smelling that hint of gas before lighting that torch.[/quote]

The Spot check (WIS) is exactly that "catching something out out of the corner of your eye" or "something doesn't seem quite right". Scent...well...if you're a half-orc, you got it covered.
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Peter · Post by **Peter** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:22 pm

Ya, but a Wisdom check doesn't make sense. Wisdom is how much your character knows, not their vision. For "something doesn't seem quite right" Wisdom works tho.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:16 pm

[quote="Peter"]Ya, but a Wisdom check doesn't make sense. Wisdom is how much your character knows, not their vision. For "something doesn't seem quite right" Wisdom works tho.[/quote]

It goes into things a little more on page 124 of the PHB explanation-wise. Still, the final call as to what is used is the CK's.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:34 am

Peter wrote:
Ya, but a Wisdom check doesn't make sense. Wisdom is how much your character knows, not their vision. For "something doesn't seem quite right" Wisdom works tho.

I'll disagree, but just for another opinion.
I think seeing something and then interpreting it to not be right take wisdom. Seeing it alone would even require a check, in most cases, but seeing it and understanding it's not right go hand-in-hand and therefore should require a check. I happen to think that check is Wisdom-based, personally.
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Ace of Swords · Post by **Ace of Swords** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:15 pm

I really hate the wisdom idea.

Common sense and faith do not make you observant.

I am liking the suggestion of opposed D20s with levels added.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:15 pm

Peter wrote:
Ya, but a Wisdom check doesn't make sense. Wisdom is how much your character knows, not their vision. For "something doesn't seem quite right" Wisdom works tho.

Best look up the definition.

Also would Intelligence, Strength, Charisma, Dexterity, of Con make more sense to you than Wisdom?

I suspect the "Rules Light" approach needs to be approached from both sides.

If those rule of thumbs don't work for you I am sure you can house rule something that does.
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:20 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:
I really hate the wisdom idea.

Common sense and faith do not make you observant.

I guess it depends on who is doing the measuring, and how we are gauging.

Wisdom is something that is lost not only on gamers, but humans as a whole. How can we discuss with any authority something we have very little of? Today all common sense, faith, and yes wisdom goes out the window as soon as we hear "Experts say...or science says".

I would say that common sense has granted me many more observations than any education, specialty, or college course has.

Besides, is this really about Wisdom, or about over analyzation?
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Ace of Swords · Post by **Ace of Swords** » Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:58 am

I can only base this on my own experiances.

Some people seem to watch the world.

Some people seem to focus so narrowly they would miss a three foot snake next to them.

I think a 7th stat could be used, observation or senses...or somesuch.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:30 am

Quote:
I'll disagree, but just for another opinion. I think seeing something and then interpreting it to not be right take wisdom. Seeing it alone would even require a check, in most cases, but seeing it and understanding it's not right go hand-in-hand and therefore should require a check. I happen to think that check is Wisdom-based, personally.

Ya, that's why i had said

Quote:
For "something doesn't seem quite right" Wisdom works tho.

Quote:
Best look up the definition.

I know what Wisdom means, and vision has nothing to do with Wisdom.

I could study for years and years, gain all kinds of knowledge. But if my eyes are messed up, all that Wisdom isn't going to fix them. Wisdom isn't going to give me the vision of a hawk either. The eyestrain from pouring over all those books would probably make my vision worse.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:52 am

You could also look at it as WIS being sort of a sixth sense. That moment when the hair on the backs of you arms and neck goes straight up...there IS something out there...and it's hungry. *cue twilight zone theme music*.

Now if you were actively searching...with your bad eyesight and all that...knowing what you are looking for...then it becomes an INT check.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:04 pm

All of this talk is quite the point of this thread. Every player/CK can make the game their own, but when rules or theory do not present a clear choice, just make up a simple new rule and alleviate the burden of proof.

For example, an even simpler method without worrying about WIS vs. INT, etc: when neccessary the CK rolls a d20 and notes the number. If the characters have a chance of noticing something, have them roll a d20 as well. If the number is equal to or higher than the CKs roll, BAM, the party notices the issue.

~O
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