DUBYA TEE EF?

[Breakdaddy]

OK, I know I'm behind the times, but DAYUM! If you need a strategy guide to "optimize your character build", then you've missed the point of sitting around the table tossing a few dice with your pals...
http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons- ... 0786954884

[serleran]

There have been a lot of products like this over the years, but they were usually produced by third-party companies... odd. And, it certainly doesn't make the comparison to a computer/console game any less valid.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[Treebore]

It just reassures me that I did not make a mistake for giving up on 4E. Definitely not my type of game, or type of gamers. I can understand optimization to a degree, but from every possible angle? Come on!
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[AGNKim]

This does not surprise me one iota.
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kim@trolllord.com

Click here: http://tiny.cc/4rvo5

[Piperdog]

And the money machine continues to run amok.
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When in doubt as to who is in charge on the battlefield, listen to the man with the bloodiest sword.

[Joe]

I can taste bile in my throat.
The only truly sad thing is when we get the next wave of 20 something gamers at our table they are going wonder why we mock their 25 strength uber ogre pc concepts at the same time looking down their nose at our rules light games.

"Yeah yeah yeah, roleplay blah blah blah. I guess 4E just spoiled me to superior games with tactical elements."

I can hear it now.
I tell you...if my hands could only reach around the thick necked designer's throat that proliferate this crap...if only my fingers were looooong enough...but alas it looks like I will need 3 or 4 hands for some of these guys. I bet 4e has a power that allows that.

Do they really not realize they are harming not helping???
_________________
'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

[Piperdog]

Quote:
Do they really not realize they are harming not helping???

They ARE helping, Joe. Helping fill their pockets with fat cash.
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When in doubt as to who is in charge on the battlefield, listen to the man with the bloodiest sword.

[Joe]

Meanwhile they steer our favored pastime closer to the brink.

Thats it...I'm getting some kevlar, boxes of ammo and I am gonna fix this once and for...oh look a butterfly! I like butterflies!

They haven't ruined butterflies for me yet...

Your exactly right Piper. When the bottom line drives the actions who can blame them? We can thats who!

Let them do what they want. They have only served to stop me from wasting my money while at the same time inspiring me to do much...much more creative things with my money.

Freedom isn't free but it is empowering.

Thank you hasbro for setting me free!
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

[mgtremaine]

Wow and the blurb "players who crave the envy of their gamer peers." I think that actually is a DSM IV listed affection is it not.
-Mike

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I found it amusing that they got $30...okay, $29.95...for a 160-page book (one that has no new rules or the like, I'm guessing). You can get the flip book (with all the rules) for less than that. Echoing the sentiment, I'm glad I didn't buy into the 4e phenomenon either. Give me a game that I can take one book to a session and have everything I need.

[Treebore]

mgtremaine wrote:
Wow and the blurb "players who crave the envy of their gamer peers." I think that actually is a DSM IV listed affection is it not.
-Mike

Craving the envy of others is definitely somewhere in there.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Go0gleplex]

Well if that doesn't put it firmly into the "needs to be flushed" category for power gamers. and the cover art is about equal on the garbage scale.
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Benoist]

Breakdaddy wrote:
OK, I know I'm behind the times, but DAYUM! If you need a strategy guide to "optimize your character build", then you've missed the point of sitting around the table tossing a few dice with your pals...
http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons- ... 0786954884

Welcome to the new game, Son. This isn't your dad's D&D anymore! MWAHAHA.
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Building: The Tower of St. Makhab - The Medival Eurth

[koralas]

Go0gleplex wrote:
Well if that doesn't put it firmly into the "needs to be flushed" category for power gamers. and the cover art is about equal on the garbage scale.

Well again, it goes to show the target audience... the cover reminds me of the cartoons of today, I hate that art style.

And again, it shows that 4E is little more than a (sic) bored game, I always cringed when people described RPG's as a board game, nothing could more further from the truth, heck, most of the time early on we didn't even use miniatures. But, unfortunately, that is what 4E has become...

[Omote]

Joe wrote:
Meanwhile they steer our favored pastime closer to the brink.

More like they steer the D&D brand name right into the drink. Loomk, 4E might not be for me but I hope that it succeeds. The D&D brand is an important factor in our hobby. But these guys keep steering the whole blessed thing right down the crapper. At what point are they going to learn? The know it's coming. The D&D brand is losing market share and the parent company lays off it's people. Not good news for them.

~O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Lord Dynel]

At least WotC embraces it now - it's not about roleplaying and story and sitting down with friends and having a good time. It's about making the most supreme character that will destroy all!

And I guess we can shoehorn some rp'ing in, if anyone's actually into that.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[Breakdaddy]

Hell, I wasnt even commenting on 4th ed overall, just anyone who would actually buy this book as anything other than a novelty to be perused and shelved (but never used!). I'm sure there are plenty of 4th ed players doing actual roleplaying but this release seems to indicate what has already been mentioned in this thread: (at least some of) the folks at WoTC do not view 4th ed primarily as an RPG, but a wargame.

The only other point I'd make is this: if I were DMing a 4th ed game and one of my players bellied up to the table brandishing this piece of abominable drek, my opinion of said player would be diminished by orders of magnitude.

[mgtremaine]

But would you "Envy them" that's really all that matters!

-Mike

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I know GG put out a great book/PDF for custom-tailoring wizards and optimizing their potential in 3.5. I think they put one out for fighters too, but I only got the wizards PDF. It gave me some great ideas for giving my last big character direction. I think the biggest thing I used in it were the tables that went through average damage for attack spells on a per level basis. At least 3.5 had a real magic system, though, that was a bit more difficult to keep track of than what's in 4e.

[Orpheus]

Breakdaddy wrote:
Hell, I wasnt even commenting on 4th ed overall, just anyone who would actually buy this book as anything other than a novelty to be perused and shelved (but never used!). I'm sure there are plenty of 4th ed players doing actual roleplaying but this release seems to indicate what has already been mentioned in this thread: (at least some of) the folks at WoTC do not view 4th ed primarily as an RPG, but a wargame.

The only other point I'd make is this: if I were DMing a 4th ed game and one of my players bellied up to the table brandishing this piece of abominable drek, my opinion of said player would be diminished by orders of magnitude.

Yeah, we spent a whole session once of mostly just exclusively roleplaying using 4th edition.

I saw this book when it first popped up on Amazon and it really didn't get my attention. The art is from the Penny Arcade guys and I think that the book is kind of aimed at the new players that have come to the game via the Penny Arcade guys' recent interest in D&D.

I personally have no interest and have never found much joy in getting that detailed with my character in any edition. In 4th I just pick a power, or let the character builder do it, and use them depending upon how much damage I feel like dealing to someone if I hit them.

Sure, there are cool combinations that you can pull of, but all of the cool stuff comes from the party makeup more than min-maxing a single character.

Some folks want it, I suppose, so there you go.

I personally would rather buy a new module or a monster manual or something.

[Christina Stiles]

Go0gleplex wrote:
Well if that doesn't put it firmly into the "needs to be flushed" category for power gamers. and the cover art is about equal on the garbage scale.

You nailed that one! I saw this on Noble Knight and about gagged. More junk.
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Christina Stiles

The Misfit Troll Word Wrangler
www.christinastiles.com
www.misfit-studios.com
www.trolllord.com

[Hrolfgar]

mgtremaine wrote:
But would you "Envy them" that's really all that matters!

-Mike

I envy the people who have the money to throw away on this product.

But who resist a craving?

[Treebore]

Breakdaddy wrote:
Hell, I wasnt even commenting on 4th ed overall, just anyone who would actually buy this book as anything other than a novelty to be perused and shelved (but never used!). I'm sure there are plenty of 4th ed players doing actual roleplaying but this release seems to indicate what has already been mentioned in this thread: (at least some of) the folks at WoTC do not view 4th ed primarily as an RPG, but a wargame.

The only other point I'd make is this: if I were DMing a 4th ed game and one of my players bellied up to the table brandishing this piece of abominable drek, my opinion of said player would be diminished by orders of magnitude.

Yes, you can definitely role play in 4E, my group did. They even put small sections about role playing into the book so 4E fans can point to it and say, "See, 4E is for role playing too!"

Not really. Certainly not at the 3 or 4 Game Days I attended. It was all tactical war gaming, no role playing.

But like I said, my group role played, but thats because we wanted to role play, not because the game rules helped or encouraged us to do so, let alone the modules.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Lord Dynel]

Treebore wrote:
Yes, you can definitely role play in 4E, my group did. They even put small sections about role playing into the book so 4E fans can point to it and say, "See, 4E is for role playing too!"

Not really. Certainly not at the 3 or 4 Game Days I attended. It was all tactical war gaming, no role playing.

But like I said, my group role played, but thats because we wanted to role play, not because the game rules helped or encouraged us to do so, let alone the modules.

See, this goes back to my "theory" I mentioned in another thread. Tree, you come from older games, as do I, and maybe Orpheus, too. We have the know-how when it comes to role-playing. We don't need a book to tell us how to role-play. I've seen those Game Days you're talking about, too. I think a part of it is either old schoolers who are tired of role-playing/never liked role-playing or people who are new to D&D following the lead of the books and it's idea of what you should do with a role-playing game. But yeah, it's m oving pieces around a grid and flashing cards as their attack powers. Very little of what we would consider role-playing.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[koralas]

Lord Dynel wrote:
See, this goes back to my "theory" I mentioned in another thread. Tree, you come from older games, as do I, and maybe Orpheus, too. We have the know-how when it comes to role-playing. We don't need a book to tell us how to role-play. I've seen those Game Days you're talking about, too. I think a part of it is either old schoolers who are tired of role-playing/never liked role-playing or people who are new to D&D following the lead of the books and it's idea of what you should do with a role-playing game. But yeah, it's m oving pieces around a grid and flashing cards as their attack powers. Very little of what we would consider role-playing.

At GenCon one of my favorite all-time events is a small game called Barroom Blitz, it uses 3.5E rules. BB is almost purely ROLEplaying. All the action takes place inside of an inn called the Feisty Wench, and the DM is there to act as referee, in the most literal sense. The action is around each of the characters. Each character has a goal, and a set of information, items, or whatever that will fulfill another characters goal. For example, a Paladin may be looking for a particular evil-doer that slaughtered a family, or a pimp may be looking for new talent (one of the roles I actually played out, successfully I might add). The DM adjudicates the rules, and judges if the goals had been met. Now, the poor bartender, head chef, and proprietor has seen many a brawl break out, and even has seen his precious inn burn to the ground. Even this character is one option for the players.

You start by selecting a character, being only given a physical description, and mayhem ensues. The available characters and goals change from year to year, this is the 7th year, and I have played in it the last 6.

Try doing something like that with the average 4E player and they would choke...

[Arazmus]

And we few, we happy few, who defend and carry on the old ways will have to be content with Castles and Crusades.

This is a big reason I want to do more at conventions with this game, get the word on the street with a quality product like TLG's stuff and hook 'em young. (you know like big tobbaco, ok, maybe not). Don't let YOUR sons and daughters get caught up in the me, me, me school of gaming.

When we were in high school one guy's dad ran a game a few times, he was REALLY old school...he really made using imagination fun. We have to do that if what we enjoy is to be preserved. Mentor and guide the utes, besides you already know what your players are going to do, you've played games with them since you were 12, give the kids a chance to show what crazy plans they can think of and quote movies they enjoy. I look forward to it.
_________________
I'll tell you what I do like though: a killer, a dyed-in-the-wool killer. Cold blooded, clean, methodical and thorough. ~Zorg

[koralas]

Arazmus wrote:
And we few, we happy few, who defend and carry on the old ways will have to be content with Castles and Crusades.

This is a big reason I want to do more at conventions with this game, get the word on the street with a quality product like TLG's stuff and hook 'em young. (you know like big tobbaco, ok, maybe not). Don't let YOUR sons and daughters get caught up in the me, me, me school of gaming.

When we were in high school one guy's dad ran a game a few times, he was REALLY old school...he really made using imagination fun. We have to do that if what we enjoy is to be preserved. Mentor and guide the utes, besides you already know what your players are going to do, you've played games with them since you were 12, give the kids a chance to show what crazy plans they can think of and quote movies they enjoy. I look forward to it.

Me, "Uh what was that?"

Arazmus looking confused, "Huh, what?"

Me, "What was that word?"

Arazmus, "What, what word?"

Me, "Did you say 'utes'?"

Arazmus, "Yeah, two utes."

Me, "What's a 'ute'?"

Arazmus, "Oh, sorry your honor, you..t..h..s"

As bad as that movie was, I loved it! (or was it just Marissa that I loved???)

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I think I've seen it twice this week on two different movie channels. Yes, Marisa was smoking hot in it. If it came on again, I'd probably watch it just for that.

[koralas]

Arazmus wrote:
And we few, we happy few, who defend and carry on the old ways will have to be content with Castles and Crusades.

Oh, and lest any think we gamers are unrefined...

" We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. For he today that sheds his blood with me, shall be my brother..."

Shakespeare, Henry V, Saint Crispen's Day speech

Durn it all, but that guy could write!

[Sir Osis of Liver]

koralas wrote:
Oh, and lest any think we gamers are unrefined...

" We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. For he today that sheds his blood with me, shall be my brother..."

Shakespeare, Henry V, Saint Crispen's Day speech

Durn it all, but that guy could write!

You mean Shakespeare does more than just make my fishing reels?